Garuda Kris

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

I see the icon as such... see annotations within the image.
I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU?
But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too....

[Gavin Nugent]

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

[werecow]

Pareidolia can be very strong, but even so that is eerily similar.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

cartography is ancient , so, it may have been possible...although one would have to wonder why they would have chosen that particular profile among all the islands... if not because Papua New Guinea resembles a Kakatua or Cockatoo .

Now the circle really round

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

As Werecow notes, it is an ancient art...

When looking at this map and it's age and date of "publication" in Manila, is it much of a stretch that they knew of the PNG shape? Records show the Malay raided as far as the west coast of PNG.... this may even explain why Twist core was seen as far as Maluku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan...or._Y_Capn.jpg

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

To be more accurate, the "other rooster" or sarimanok. It is a stylized mythical rooster from the Moro peoples. So the pommel of the mid 1800s and later resemble more the sarimanok head in the minds of many.

[SanibelSwassa]

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

I'll spend some time aligning my thoughts later in the week, but at face value, and no doubt the crutch of the matter that muddies the origins question for me is that I see Sulu motifs, Malay motifs and Boreo motifs within many aspects of the hulu and the dress these are sometimes found in... finding that consistent common and undeniable theme within all seems quite the challenge... equally, most blades as you note are distinctly Moro/Sulu... the adventure continues

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

This aspect reminds me somewhat of the pronounced part of Malaysian/Patani Coteng and to a much lesser degree, the side panels on the Tajong which are more vegetation motifs and not pronounced.

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

At the same time I see a metamorphous in process through various examples, not unlike the various stages other Keris hulu forms are found in other regions.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.

I think this is a possibility. Certainly Hindu, then Buddhist, then Islamic influences came to the Philippines long ago, and probably merged in styles without knowing their origins.

Also the "gates" may have their origins in the vegetable motifs in Islam and earlier. But I do agree that the top one looks like the gate found on some Islamic prayer mats.

As for the "wings" I still hold that they are more the stylized "eyes" found on danganan, junggayan, and 17c kris pommels.

Great carvings and good to have them with twist cores.