Jezail for comment

Berkley · 24th September 2012, 07:51 PM

Mindful that weapons from Afghanistan are often less than they are represented to be, I consulted earlier forum posts related to jezails before acquiring this one. I hope I learned enough to choose wisely, but would be grateful for all observations and discussion. In any event, this piece can't be more recently made than the Italian Colt replica revolver I traded for it.

Richard G · 25th September 2012, 11:02 AM

It looks old to me, however, how old is another question!
Specifically, this looks to be a real E.I.C. Baker pattern lock, in commission from 1819 to 1839.
Regards
Richard

Berkley · 25th September 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

this looks to be a real E.I.C. Baker pattern lock, in commission from 1819 to 1839.

Thank you for the information.

rickystl · 25th September 2012, 06:06 PM

Hi Berkley. I would say that you got the better of the trade.

Your Jazail looks to be a good representative example. Looks like the all the decoration is there. The sling is a plus. The Baker pattern lock, original ramrod - it all looks real good. Interesting that the barrel is tapered octagon for it's entire length. Most of the barrels on Jazails I've seen (actually quite a few) have either tapered round barrels, or tapered octagon-to-round. Yours is the first one O recall being full octagon. One thing I noticed: The vent hole in the barrel seems very large and appears to have threads. Is this true? Or is it just the photo? Would be interested to know.
Anyway, great looking piece. Much better than the one I just purchased. Thanks for Posting. Rick.

David R · 25th September 2012, 08:18 PM

Lookin' good. Decent barrel and a good lock, brass decoration rather than MOP.

Berkley · 25th September 2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Interesting that the barrel is tapered octagon for it's entire length. Most of the barrels on Jazails I've seen (actually quite a few) have either tapered round barrels, or tapered octagon-to-round. Yours is the first one I recall being full octagon. One thing I noticed: The vent hole in the barrel seems very large and appears to have threads. Is this true?

It is true. One internet source suggests that the use of vent liners in European firearms dates back as far as the seventeenth century. Is it possible that, contrary to usual practice, the barrel is not of local make, but rather another western trophy like the lock?

rickystl · 26th September 2012, 08:29 PM

Hi again. The size of the hole in the barrel looks too large for a vent liner. But it does look to be about the correct size for a percussion drum.
The barrel could have been European made for the local market? Although from the photos it seems more likely it was locally made. The rear sight is the most common style I see on Jezails. Turkish and Persian barrels commonly use this rear sight arrangement.
Maybe you could post a close up photo of that barrel vent area? Is there a smaller hole inside the larger one?
At the momment I'm going to go out on a limb and take a guess: It looks like the barrel at one time was perussion - or converted to percussion - and then re-converted back to flintlock. If true, makes the gun that more interesting. Hope you can get a close up pic of the vent area. Again, thanks for Posting. Rick.

Berkley · 26th September 2012, 09:42 PM

This is the best I can do, I'm afraid. Pictures were taken in direct sun with a small bore light inside the barrel as close to the breech as possible. The fibrous material inside the vent is thin, dried, encrusted, and doesn't yield to a dental pick.

Ferguson · 27th September 2012, 10:30 AM

That's really cool Berk. Congrats!
Steve

AJ1356 · 27th September 2012, 12:50 PM

That is a HUGE priming hole. The gun seems original enough to me, the wood the barrel and the lock all look old and original. From the pictures the barrell looks to me to be made of out bronze which was was something they'd have made the barrell from with locally. It is quite normal to make the barrells octagonal all the way through.

RDGAC · 27th September 2012, 01:34 PM

Looks like she's been converted from flint to percussion, then from percussion back to flint at some stage. Possibly the lock isn't original to the stock and barrel; judging by the photos I'd say that the fit between lockplate and stock isn't too neat. The stock, barrel and lock, indeed, may all be from various source guns.

The amount of remaining brass decoration is very pleasing; how bright is it? The photos seem to suggest it's moderately bright, but I think you took them with a flash on, which doesn't help. Lovely barrel; rifle or smoothbore? We have a similar, full octagonal, rifle Damascus barrel here at work. The sight looks similar to one of mine which I think is Persian, though I don't know if that'll be any use with regard to attributing an origin.

A really good piece, all in all!

Best,

Meredydd

rickystl · 27th September 2012, 05:36 PM

Hi Berkley! Thanks for the additional photos. Are there any threads in the hole? That would pretty much confirm that this gun was percussion at some point in it's life. But I don't believe anyone would fire this gun with a vent hole that large.

The blow-back would be dangerous. Sometimes vent holes were made a little larger so that while loading powder in the barrel, a small portion of the powder would fall into the pan area with the frizzen closed. This would save the extra step of having to prime the pan. But the size and position of this hole look the right size for a percussion drum. There were a number of Baker pattern locks that were percussion (or factory converted). And this may be one of those guns that utilized that lock? Being re-converted to flintlock would not be surprising since often percussion caps would be hard to find in the area, and expensive. Again, if there are threads in the hole, it was probably percussion. It may have had a vent liner installed during the re-conversion to flintlock. The most common material for vent liners during the period was gold (low grade) and may have been removed and sold when the gun was no longer being used. The interesting thing is that the barrel and lock patina look similar. And the lock that is on it now, is one of the most common and correct.
Of course I'm just speculating on some of these comments. And in any case, it does not distract from the overall appearance of the gun. It's a nice piece in really nice condition. Rick.

rickystl · 27th September 2012, 05:41 PM

Here's a thought: You might take the lock off and inspect the mortise area. You might find a slight difference in the color of the wood inside? Where maybe later inletting was done to accomodate a lock change. Just a thought.

Rick.

Berkley · 27th September 2012, 11:28 PM

To respond to some points that were raised:
A magnet is attracted to the barrel, so it isn't bronze.
The brass doesn't show any sign of recent cleaning.
There are threads inside the vent, and the fit of lock to stock is relatively crude. I am grateful that, whenever the percussion lock was replaced, a genuine EIC lock was used. At some point I do plan to dismount the lock for inspection. However, a Nepalese Brown Bess in much greater need of attention has first claim on my spare time for now.
Many thanks to all for the positive and helpful comments.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

To respond to some points that were raised:
A magnet is attracted to the barrel, so it isn't bronze.
The brass doesn't show any sign of recent cleaning.
There are threads inside the vent, and the fit of lock to stock is relatively crude. I am grateful that, whenever the percussion lock was replaced, a genuine EIC lock was used. At some point I do plan to dismount the lock for inspection. However, a Nepalese Brown Bess in much greater need of attention has first claim on my spare time for now.
Many thanks to all for the positive and helpful comments.

Salaams Berkley The subject of locally made and restructured guns is a huge one. Your pictures are excellent... I don't have that many Indo Perian or Indo Afghan guns but here's one .. once again a made up piece typical of many in the Khyber and Indian regions. It will be interesting to see your Brown Bess... which apparently didn't have the range that some of the locally made long barrels had.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

rickystl · 28th September 2012, 05:01 PM

Berkley: I certainly know what you mean by having other projects first. I must have about six Ethno gun projects going on at the same time now.

It will be interesting to see the Brown Bess when available. Please Post photos. Thanks again for Posting the Jezail. Nice piece.

Ibrahiim: You're right. What a great example of a locally made/Khyber type gun you have. The Tower lock and the different barrel bands, etc. Great example!! Thanks for Posting. Rick.

Berkley · 28th September 2012, 06:43 PM

Here is the "Brown Bess", one of fewer than ten intact specimens recovered from Lagan Silekhana palace in Kathmandu in 2003.
The brass buttplate was sold for scrap by the palace "caretakers" long ago, but everything else is complete. Lock is a Windus pattern made in Birmingham but bearing a Nepalese Gurkha temple marking; all other parts made in Nepal.

rickystl · 30th September 2012, 06:56 PM

Hi Berkley. I might be able to locate an original and correct butt plate for you if interested? PM me if interested. Rick.

Berkley · 1st October 2012, 01:40 AM

PM sent.

24th September 2012, 07:51 PM	#1
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Jezail for comment Mindful that weapons from Afghanistan are often less than they are represented to be, I consulted earlier forum posts related to jezails before acquiring this one. I hope I learned enough to choose wisely, but would be grateful for all observations and discussion. In any event, this piece can't be more recently made than the Italian Colt replica revolver I traded for it. Attached Images

26th September 2012, 09:42 PM	#8
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	This is the best I can do, I'm afraid. Pictures were taken in direct sun with a small bore light inside the barrel as close to the breech as possible. The fibrous material inside the vent is thin, dried, encrusted, and doesn't yield to a dental pick. Attached Images

28th September 2012, 06:43 PM	#17
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Here is the "Brown Bess", one of fewer than ten intact specimens recovered from Lagan Silekhana palace in Kathmandu in 2003. The brass buttplate was sold for scrap by the palace "caretakers" long ago, but everything else is complete. Lock is a Windus pattern made in Birmingham but bearing a Nepalese Gurkha temple marking; all other parts made in Nepal. Attached Images Last edited by Berkley; 29th September 2012 at 03:40 AM.

1st October 2012, 01:40 AM	#19
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Brown Bess butt plate PM sent. Attached Images Last edited by Berkley; 1st October 2012 at 06:11 PM.

25th September 2012, 11:02 AM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	It looks old to me, however, how old is another question! Specifically, this looks to be a real E.I.C. Baker pattern lock, in commission from 1819 to 1839. Regards Richard

25th September 2012, 06:06 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Berkley. I would say that you got the better of the trade. Your Jazail looks to be a good representative example. Looks like the all the decoration is there. The sling is a plus. The Baker pattern lock, original ramrod - it all looks real good. Interesting that the barrel is tapered octagon for it's entire length. Most of the barrels on Jazails I've seen (actually quite a few) have either tapered round barrels, or tapered octagon-to-round. Yours is the first one O recall being full octagon. One thing I noticed: The vent hole in the barrel seems very large and appears to have threads. Is this true? Or is it just the photo? Would be interested to know. Anyway, great looking piece. Much better than the one I just purchased. Thanks for Posting. Rick.

25th September 2012, 08:18 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Lookin' good. Decent barrel and a good lock, brass decoration rather than MOP.

26th September 2012, 08:29 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi again. The size of the hole in the barrel looks too large for a vent liner. But it does look to be about the correct size for a percussion drum. The barrel could have been European made for the local market? Although from the photos it seems more likely it was locally made. The rear sight is the most common style I see on Jezails. Turkish and Persian barrels commonly use this rear sight arrangement. Maybe you could post a close up photo of that barrel vent area? Is there a smaller hole inside the larger one? At the momment I'm going to go out on a limb and take a guess: It looks like the barrel at one time was perussion - or converted to percussion - and then re-converted back to flintlock. If true, makes the gun that more interesting. Hope you can get a close up pic of the vent area. Again, thanks for Posting. Rick.

27th September 2012, 10:30 AM	#9
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	That's really cool Berk. Congrats! Steve

27th September 2012, 12:50 PM	#10
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	That is a HUGE priming hole. The gun seems original enough to me, the wood the barrel and the lock all look old and original. From the pictures the barrell looks to me to be made of out bronze which was was something they'd have made the barrell from with locally. It is quite normal to make the barrells octagonal all the way through.

27th September 2012, 01:34 PM	#11
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Looks like she's been converted from flint to percussion, then from percussion back to flint at some stage. Possibly the lock isn't original to the stock and barrel; judging by the photos I'd say that the fit between lockplate and stock isn't too neat. The stock, barrel and lock, indeed, may all be from various source guns. The amount of remaining brass decoration is very pleasing; how bright is it? The photos seem to suggest it's moderately bright, but I think you took them with a flash on, which doesn't help. Lovely barrel; rifle or smoothbore? We have a similar, full octagonal, rifle Damascus barrel here at work. The sight looks similar to one of mine which I think is Persian, though I don't know if that'll be any use with regard to attributing an origin. A really good piece, all in all! Best, Meredydd

27th September 2012, 05:36 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Berkley! Thanks for the additional photos. Are there any threads in the hole? That would pretty much confirm that this gun was percussion at some point in it's life. But I don't believe anyone would fire this gun with a vent hole that large. The blow-back would be dangerous. Sometimes vent holes were made a little larger so that while loading powder in the barrel, a small portion of the powder would fall into the pan area with the frizzen closed. This would save the extra step of having to prime the pan. But the size and position of this hole look the right size for a percussion drum. There were a number of Baker pattern locks that were percussion (or factory converted). And this may be one of those guns that utilized that lock? Being re-converted to flintlock would not be surprising since often percussion caps would be hard to find in the area, and expensive. Again, if there are threads in the hole, it was probably percussion. It may have had a vent liner installed during the re-conversion to flintlock. The most common material for vent liners during the period was gold (low grade) and may have been removed and sold when the gun was no longer being used. The interesting thing is that the barrel and lock patina look similar. And the lock that is on it now, is one of the most common and correct. Of course I'm just speculating on some of these comments. And in any case, it does not distract from the overall appearance of the gun. It's a nice piece in really nice condition. Rick.

27th September 2012, 05:41 PM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Here's a thought: You might take the lock off and inspect the mortise area. You might find a slight difference in the color of the wood inside? Where maybe later inletting was done to accomodate a lock change. Just a thought. Rick.

27th September 2012, 11:28 PM	#14
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	To respond to some points that were raised: A magnet is attracted to the barrel, so it isn't bronze. The brass doesn't show any sign of recent cleaning. There are threads inside the vent, and the fit of lock to stock is relatively crude. I am grateful that, whenever the percussion lock was replaced, a genuine EIC lock was used. At some point I do plan to dismount the lock for inspection. However, a Nepalese Brown Bess in much greater need of attention has first claim on my spare time for now. Many thanks to all for the positive and helpful comments.

28th September 2012, 05:01 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Berkley: I certainly know what you mean by having other projects first. I must have about six Ethno gun projects going on at the same time now. It will be interesting to see the Brown Bess when available. Please Post photos. Thanks again for Posting the Jezail. Nice piece. Ibrahiim: You're right. What a great example of a locally made/Khyber type gun you have. The Tower lock and the different barrel bands, etc. Great example!! Thanks for Posting. Rick.

30th September 2012, 06:56 PM	#18
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Berkley. I might be able to locate an original and correct butt plate for you if interested? PM me if interested. Rick.