18th Century Moro kris?

Sajen · 22nd September 2010, 07:38 PM

Hello members,

yesterday I bought by a online auction

this restauration object:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Unfortunately I am able to copy the pictures but my pc don't have a program to open this files so I don't know if I can attach pictures.

When I look inside Cato at page 72 blades like this described as 18th Century kris. I want to ask the more knowledge members if I am correct by this. And I am wonder how the missing sheath tip will look like. My guess is that it have been like the one from Maurice:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=moro

The blade byself show nearly features of indonesian blades, is it's origin maybe the north of Kalimantan? I think that the handle pommel have been a small kakatua, what do you think?

All comments are very welcome,

Detlef

David · 22nd September 2010, 08:04 PM

Here you go Detlef. I resized these and brightened them up a bit.
I believe this does fit into the category we have come to know as archaic kris. Shame about the kakatau, but it looks like you got a good deal on this one.

Sajen · 22nd September 2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here you go Detlef. I resized these and brightened them up a bit.
I believe this does fit into the category we have come to know as archaic kris. Shame about the kakatau, but it looks like you got a good deal on this one.

Thank you David for the help and also for the comment. So I have been correct and learned well from this place!

Yes the broken kakatua is bad and will be the big problem by the restore.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd September 2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you David for the help and also for the comment. So I have been correct and learned well from this place!

Yes the broken kakatua is bad and will be the big problem by the restore.

Detlef,

A nice buy and a great price. Do not dispair, time and patience will work wonders.
I look forward to seeing the blade cleaned

Gavin

Maurice · 22nd September 2010, 08:40 PM

Hi Detlef,

I really like these archaic blades.
Great that you have one in your collection now.
Congrats with your great find!

Maurice

Sajen · 22nd September 2010, 08:58 PM

Thank you Gavin and Maurice. I am surprised how clean the blade, still without corrosion. Any clue how the missing tip of the scabbard have to look?

Battara · 23rd September 2010, 01:42 AM

Nice catch. Yes this is a Sulu mid-18c kris. I think the hilt was added later, but still nice and a lot of work. Yes there was a buntut probably carved like the one I made when I made the scabbard for my 18c twistcore Sulu kris (or like Maurice's). If you need I can take a close up picture of the buntut of mine.

Sajen · 23rd September 2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Nice catch. Yes this is a Sulu mid-18c kris. I think the hilt was added later, but still nice and a lot of work. Yes there was a buntut probably carved like the one I made when I made the scabbard for my 18c twistcore Sulu kris (or like Maurice's). If you need I can take a close up picture of the buntut of mine.

Thank you Jose!

It will be nice to have some close up's from your buntut. Which wood you have used for the scabbard?

Battara · 24th September 2010, 04:49 AM

Ok Sajen, here is a close up of the toe as promised.

What type of wood did I use? Long ago I used stained walnut for the scabbard, but stained burled walnut for the wrangka. I also did the silver work. The buntut was made separately and joined to the scabbard.

(Actually I used wood scraps I had lying around and I decided to make a scabbard for this kris out of them.

)

Sajen · 24th September 2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok Sajen, here is a close up of the toe as promised.

What type of wood did I use? Long ago I used stained walnut for the scabbard, but stained burled walnut for the wrangka. I also did the silver work. The buntut was made separately and joined to the scabbard.

(Actually I used wood scraps I had lying around and I decided to make a scabbard for this kris out of them.

)

Thank you Jose, this will help me to carve a new one!

Battara · 25th September 2010, 02:34 AM

Oh you are welcome. Please post your results!

Bill M · 27th September 2010, 09:04 AM

Some old Moro kris - twist core

ThePepperSkull · 27th September 2010, 09:10 AM

older/18th century Sulu pieces like this are my absolute favourite! Thank you for sharing!

Sajen · 27th September 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh you are welcome. Please post your results!

Of course I will post pictures of the results!

Sajen · 27th September 2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

Some old Moro kris - twist core

Very nice examples, thank's for sharing.

I don't think that my blade will have a twist core pattern.

Bill M · 27th September 2010, 10:42 PM

Sajen,
You have a really good old blade. Be proud of it!

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 04:49 PM

Today I received the kris and I am pleased with it. (and proud too

)
The blade is very small in comparison with my other two kris. The pommel is broken at both sides.
I have two questions and it would be nice to get some advices from you.
The first: the blade have a nice old patination with nearly no rust. Do you would let the blade like this or you would polish it and stain it?
The second: since the pommel is so badly broken I think about to cut it and let carve a new one, this would open also the possibility to attach a new silver band in up without open the binding. I have contact a dealer in the Philippines who see the possibility to let carve a new pommel. And what material you would choice for the pommel?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 6th October 2010, 05:50 PM

By all means, etch the piece - probably no need for polish, and get the pommel remade. Just make sure you get it back and that the carver does it according to old tribal standards.

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

By all means, etch the piece - probably no need for polish, and get the pommel remade. Just make sure you get it back and that the carver does it according to old tribal standards.

Hi Jose,

thank you for advice. What do you think, is it better to remove the handle (next problem: I don't know how) or cut it and hide the cut by a new silver band? I have nearly no experience with Moro kris restoration so all my stupid questions!

I don't want to destroy something.

Battara · 6th October 2010, 08:54 PM

Good question. You could cut the top and have the new pommel placed on top, with a new silver band.

kai · 6th October 2010, 09:28 PM

Hello Detlef,

For a traditional repair job you will have to remove the binding; this example exhibits a fairly simple pattern but still I'd prefer to keep it despite some loose threads near the pommel.

Quite a few pommels are socketed with a seperate piece of wood (of lesser quality hidden by the grip bindings/decorations). Usually these are secured by a wooden/bamboo pin - this will be tough to remove though (without some moving of the bindings). Can you peek under the loose thread to verify wether grip and pommel are seperate?

If not, you could still saw off the pommel and craft a good fit when the new pommel arrives (the socket should be rectangular so that the pommel can't turn). It's not easy to get a good fit but certainly worth to spend some time on.

BTW, I'd definitely go for a diminutive pommel; good quality bunti would be great.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 09:48 PM

Hello Jose and Kai,

so far I can see is the grip made from one piece of wood and I think that it would be the best (like you both instigate) to cut the pommel and fix a new one and to coat this with a new silver band. I would like to keep the old binding. Of course have to look the new pommel daintily in old style.

Thank you both for your help,

Detlef

Battara · 6th October 2010, 11:32 PM

I now have more time to answer: I agree with Kai 100%. I would add that the cord wrap would need to have another recoating of black lacquer.

kai · 8th October 2010, 07:18 AM

Hello Detlef,

BTW, don't saw off the pommel until you receive the replacement hilt!

I'd suggest to ask the carver to prepare the pommel with a rectangular socket and its final depth would determine where to saw off the damaged pommel. It's much easier to file the extending stump into a "nut" exactly fitting a given socket than having to carve the socket...

Maybe it would be good to provide the carver with a cast so that the fit is going to be as close as possible?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

BTW, don't saw off the pommel until you receive the replacement hilt!

I'd suggest to ask the carver to prepare the pommel with a rectangular socket and its final depth would determine where to saw off the damaged pommel. It's much easier to file the extending stump into a "nut" exactly fitting a given socket than having to carve the socket...

Maybe it would be good to provide the carver with a cast so that the fit is going to be as close as possible?

Regards,
Kai

Very good hint to let carve the pommel socket more big, thank you!

BTW, I have tried a first etch, not very successful, the comlete blade get darkened. Any advise?

Best,

Detlef

Sajen · 23rd April 2011, 11:11 AM

The first step of restoration is done. The sheath has get a new buntut, a new tip at the back side of the crosspiece and the missing piece of wood down under the crosspiece is now filled up again. Ok, the old patina is gone but since I want to have a complete sheath again there was no other way.
What do you think?

Atlantia · 23rd April 2011, 11:15 AM

First class work!! Well done, it looks great.

Sajen · 23rd April 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

First class work!! Well done, it looks great.

Thank you very much!

Spunjer · 23rd April 2011, 12:39 PM

good job on the scabbard, detlef! how's the kris coming along?

Sajen · 23rd April 2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

good job on the scabbard, detlef! how's the kris coming along?

Thank you!

The kris byself is untouched for the moment but will be the next project. Is the form of the scabbard tip ok?

22nd September 2010, 07:38 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,490	18th Century Moro kris? Hello members, yesterday I bought by a online auction this restauration object: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT Unfortunately I am able to copy the pictures but my pc don't have a program to open this files so I don't know if I can attach pictures. When I look inside Cato at page 72 blades like this described as 18th Century kris. I want to ask the more knowledge members if I am correct by this. And I am wonder how the missing sheath tip will look like. My guess is that it have been like the one from Maurice: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=moro The blade byself show nearly features of indonesian blades, is it's origin maybe the north of Kalimantan? I think that the handle pommel have been a small kakatua, what do you think? All comments are very welcome, Detlef Attached Images

22nd September 2010, 08:04 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	Here you go Detlef. I resized these and brightened them up a bit. I believe this does fit into the category we have come to know as archaic kris. Shame about the kakatau, but it looks like you got a good deal on this one. Attached Images

22nd September 2010, 08:40 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,324	wonderfull blade Hi Detlef, I really like these archaic blades. Great that you have one in your collection now. Congrats with your great find! Maurice

23rd September 2010, 01:42 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Nice catch. Yes this is a Sulu mid-18c kris. I think the hilt was added later, but still nice and a lot of work. Yes there was a buntut probably carved like the one I made when I made the scabbard for my 18c twistcore Sulu kris (or like Maurice's). If you need I can take a close up picture of the buntut of mine. Attached Images

24th September 2010, 04:49 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Ok Sajen, here is a close up of the toe as promised. What type of wood did I use? Long ago I used stained walnut for the scabbard, but stained burled walnut for the wrangka. I also did the silver work. The buntut was made separately and joined to the scabbard. (Actually I used wood scraps I had lying around and I decided to make a scabbard for this kris out of them. ) Attached Images

22nd September 2010, 08:58 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,490	Thank you Gavin and Maurice. I am surprised how clean the blade, still without corrosion. Any clue how the missing tip of the scabbard have to look?

25th September 2010, 02:34 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Oh you are welcome. Please post your results!

27th September 2010, 09:04 AM	#12
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Some old Moro kris - twist core Attached Images

27th September 2010, 09:10 AM	#13
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	older/18th century Sulu pieces like this are my absolute favourite! Thank you for sharing!

27th September 2010, 10:42 PM	#16
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Sajen, You have a really good old blade. Be proud of it!

6th October 2010, 04:49 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,490	Today I received the kris and I am pleased with it. (and proud too ) The blade is very small in comparison with my other two kris. The pommel is broken at both sides. I have two questions and it would be nice to get some advices from you. The first: the blade have a nice old patination with nearly no rust. Do you would let the blade like this or you would polish it and stain it? The second: since the pommel is so badly broken I think about to cut it and let carve a new one, this would open also the possibility to attach a new silver band in up without open the binding. I have contact a dealer in the Philippines who see the possibility to let carve a new pommel. And what material you would choice for the pommel? Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th October 2010, 05:50 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	By all means, etch the piece - probably no need for polish, and get the pommel remade. Just make sure you get it back and that the carver does it according to old tribal standards.

6th October 2010, 08:54 PM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Good question. You could cut the top and have the new pommel placed on top, with a new silver band.

6th October 2010, 09:28 PM	#21
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Hello Detlef, For a traditional repair job you will have to remove the binding; this example exhibits a fairly simple pattern but still I'd prefer to keep it despite some loose threads near the pommel. Quite a few pommels are socketed with a seperate piece of wood (of lesser quality hidden by the grip bindings/decorations). Usually these are secured by a wooden/bamboo pin - this will be tough to remove though (without some moving of the bindings). Can you peek under the loose thread to verify wether grip and pommel are seperate? If not, you could still saw off the pommel and craft a good fit when the new pommel arrives (the socket should be rectangular so that the pommel can't turn). It's not easy to get a good fit but certainly worth to spend some time on. BTW, I'd definitely go for a diminutive pommel; good quality bunti would be great. Regards, Kai

6th October 2010, 09:48 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,490	Hello Jose and Kai, so far I can see is the grip made from one piece of wood and I think that it would be the best (like you both instigate) to cut the pommel and fix a new one and to coat this with a new silver band. I would like to keep the old binding. Of course have to look the new pommel daintily in old style. Thank you both for your help, Detlef

6th October 2010, 11:32 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I now have more time to answer: I agree with Kai 100%. I would add that the cord wrap would need to have another recoating of black lacquer.

8th October 2010, 07:18 AM	#24
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Hello Detlef, BTW, don't saw off the pommel until you receive the replacement hilt! I'd suggest to ask the carver to prepare the pommel with a rectangular socket and its final depth would determine where to saw off the damaged pommel. It's much easier to file the extending stump into a "nut" exactly fitting a given socket than having to carve the socket... Maybe it would be good to provide the carver with a cast so that the fit is going to be as close as possible? Regards, Kai

23rd April 2011, 11:11 AM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,490	The first step of restoration is done. The sheath has get a new buntut, a new tip at the back side of the crosspiece and the missing piece of wood down under the crosspiece is now filled up again. Ok, the old patina is gone but since I want to have a complete sheath again there was no other way. What do you think? Attached Images

23rd April 2011, 11:15 AM	#27
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	First class work!! Well done, it looks great.

23rd April 2011, 12:39 PM	#29
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	good job on the scabbard, detlef! how's the kris coming along?