Ethics and Policies

[Jussi M.]

Well Alan,

I cannot but to agree with the ideals you present - as you know already - but that is not the question, the question is, and I quote myself:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

If something is unwanted but we "cannot get rid of it", why could we not rephrase the question to "how it can be made acceptable?"

The question then is whether we can accept commercialism on this site in any form or can we not. If the answer is that we cannot accept it then the solution is simple - everybody should act as you. - Those pieces that will be put onto the market cannot be shown nor talked in public on this forum. All attempts should be shot down as the there cannot be a blurry line of what is and what is not acceptable.

This means that the principle that this forum is all about the gathering and transfer of keris related knowledge is to be enforced ruthlessly. What I cannot see possible is to have a some sort of a middle ground. - It just does not work like that. Commercialism then either has to be banned completely or freed completely and let the public decide what is and is not acceptable. Everything in between is doomed to fail.

The question basically is then what is the reason for the forums existence?

When that is outlined on a clear and concise manner the rest is easy. There is no way that all opinions could be addressed satisfactorily as our motives for being here differ. A forum has to be something for somebody. It cannot be everything for everybody. The wider the audience wanted, the looser the rules have to be. The tighter the grip the smaller the audience that accepts such a firm control.

I think it would be best to address what is the reason for this forums existence and then make decisions based on that regarding the acceptance or banning of commercial elements.

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .

Thanks,

J.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

I have nothing to add except reinstating that in my opinion there can be no middle ground. - Commercial elements are either OK´d 100% or banned 100%. Anything in between is doomed to fail as drawing the line would be extremely difficult and lead to complications on what it is and what is not OK .

Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.
Like Alan, i am here to share knowledge and learn from others. What i know (or think i know) i am always willing to quite freely share. What i do not know i am always willing to listen to and learn. This is the mission, i believe, of this forum, to freely exchange thoughts and knowledge about keris and the culture of keris. I personally have no intention, desire or inclination to ever run an appraisal-for-hire aspect of this site and i seriously doubt that any other knowledgeable members will be interested in such a undertaking either. Besides all of the afore mentioned reasons why there is also the extremely practical one that you simply cannot give a truly accurate appraisal of a keris without examining the item firsthand. Photos are just not good enough to make definitive judgments of certain aspects of keris. If someone else wants to try to set up an internet site that provides this service then i say more power to them. I would personally take any assessment coming from such a site with one huge grain of salt.
I also must point out that the goal of this forum is not necessarily to fill the needs of the lowest common denominator of keris collectors in order to gain the largest membership possible. It is the free exchange of thoughts, ideas and knowledge of keris and keris culture between collectors of a like interest. It is to grow our understanding of the keris and the culture that supports it so that we might better grasp it's place in that society and in human history and to discuss what is happening in the world of crafting high-end art keris in present day. I do not see this as a place to appraise monetary value of keris, which in and of itself is both a tricky and highly subjective thing. So if you are a dealer whose sole purpose for being a member here is to present keris that are intended for sale then you are indeed in the wrong place. This does not mean that members who also sell keris are not welcome here. We have many who are regular, productive contributors who have never attempted to present keris for sale on this forum. And there are a few who have never even used the Swap Forum to sell an item other than to post a link to their sales site. They understand the purpose of this forum and show great respect for it and i think that in doing so they have also shown their high level of integrity and honesty as dealers, a very valuable commodity in my book. For some reason i trust a dealer more who isn't always trying to push their items on me like a sneaky used car salesman.
Rick has presented 3 additional guidelines to address this issue which i fully support. I would also add that if you do try to sell something in Swap after the 30 day waiting period that it should be clear that you can in no way, shape or form provide a link in your sales thread to the previous discussion on the forum. In other words, you cannot use the comments of other forum members to promote the sale of your keris unless you receive express permission from every single person who participated in that thread.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by David

Jussi, commercial elements have always been banned from these forums, with the exception, of course, of the Swap Forum where commerce is permitted. It is plain and simple, cut and dry and has always been the way we work things here.

If you ask for open discussion and opinions why don´t you welcome them?

Do we want it or not, most people here are more or less continuously on the look out for new additions to their collections. It would be for the benefit of the unexperienced collector to have some sort of reference that the new addition that he is considering is not a lemon but as a worthy an addition as can be judged from two dimensional pictures on the www.

Yes, for granted a wise collector buys the seller but given the nature of the keris it is many a times that even the most honest of sellers is selling something that he think is X only to find out (if it is found out) later that it actually was Y or Z. - Not all vendors have the grade and understanding of, say Mr. Maisey´s.

If I am buying a new addition to my watch collection and I am not 100% sure of what I am dealing with never mind who the seller, I will post pictures on the forums and ask for the opinion of the more seasoned collectors who are experts on the model in question.

Yes. Watches are nothing like the keris for a myriad of reasons, but the risks in acquiring them on the internet are not very different from each other.

Why cannot a collector ask for the opinion of a more seasoned collector outside the forum, well, of course there is nothing to stop him or her for doing that. Is it not how ever natural to ask something of this nature on the forum dedicated for the items in question?

I understand that opening the door for something like this might bring along unwanted side effects. It might however also ignite the motivation for the beginning collectors to seek for a deeper understanding that is the norm of most postings.

If we want this place to be a completely free zone of all having to do with commerce that is more than OK for me. I just voiced an alternative possibility, no biggie.

Thanks,

J

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

If you ask for open discussion and opinions why don´t you welcome them?

Jussi all opinions are most certainly welcome. I did not making my reply post to stop the discussion. But you seem to be under the impression that the purpose of this forum and it's stance on commercial elements have not been clearly and concisely outlined already. My response to you is that we have always been clear about it. You are certainly welcome to suggest that we change the way we deal with this subject. That doesn't mean that you will find me in agreement.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Do we want it or not, most people here are more or less continuously on the look out for new additions to their collections. It would be for the benefit of the unexperienced collector to have some sort of reference that the new addition that he is considering is not a lemon but as a worthy an addition as can be judged from two dimensional pictures on the www.
If I am buying a new addition to my watch collection and I am not 100% sure of what I am dealing with never mind who the seller, I will post pictures on the forums and ask for the opinion of the more seasoned collectors who are experts on the model in question.
Yes. Watches are are not kerises, but the risks in acquiring them on the internet are not very different from each other. You would not believe how close the fakes and frankensteins are today to the "real deals".

And here is the problem with this, or at least one of them. No one here has any official credentials authorizing them to make appraisals of keris. From photo even someone as well versed as Mr. Maisey can, if pressed, make a judgment in error. So let's say you see a keris for sale somewhere and you want to know if it's the real deal. You post photos on this forum and either Mr. Maisey or someone else whose opinion you trust makes a public statement that the keris in question looks off for one reason or another and based on this information you then choose not to make the purchase. But perhaps they are in error and the seller, who can clearly monitor this forum sees this assessment. He then has a legal case with this forum for interfering with the sale of his keris and possibly slandering his reputation as a dealer. This is a liability that we just can't have on this forum.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Why cannot a collector ask for the opinion of a more seasoned collector outside the forum, well, of course there is nothing to stop him or her for doing that. Is it not how ever natural to ask something of this nature on the forum dedicated for the items in question?

It may seem natural for you to ask for such an assessment on the forum, but asking a member you trust privately, either by email or PM is the proper way to deal with this question. As Alan has already stated, he has done this countless times when asked. What i am sure he does not want to do is to make a public pronouncement on a keris that possibly opens him up to legal action by the potential seller.

[Jussi M.]

Well David,

I don´t see any point in continuing this talk this anymore really?
It is fruitless to try argument contra something that is cemented law.

Thanks,

J.

[fearn]

Hi David and Rick,

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

As all of you know, I'm not a seller or a much of a collector, so I'll use myself as an example: Suppose I post new something here, and ask where it's from. Someone says, "Nice keris. I think it's from Bali."

A week later, my fiancee finds out I bought it, and hits the roof, saying that we'd agreed to spend money on the house first, not on toys, and we don't have room for it anyway (this happens to be mostly true). I decide to sell it on eBay. "For sale, nice keris, probably from Bali. Starting bid US$40."

I will be banned if I didn't get permission to quote whoever it was.

Or I can lie and say it's an excellent keris from Java, US$200, and be okay???

And how does me having permission work, anyway? I have to email the moderator before I put up the item for sale? Or do I get banned first, and then have to defend myself by forwarding emails and hoping you believe that I didn't just write them myself?

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders. I would be happier if there was a procedure in place for dealing with potential offenders too, but that is a lot of work.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi David and Rick,

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

As all of you know, I'm not a seller or a much of a collector, so I'll use myself as an example: Suppose I post new something here, and ask where it's from. Someone says, "Nice keris from Bali."

A week later, my fiancee finds out I bought it, and hits the roof, saying that we'd agreed to spend the money on the house first, not on toys, and we don't have room for it anyway. I decide to sell it on eBay. "For sale, nice Bali keris. Starting bid US$40."

I will be banned.

Or I can lie and say it's an excellent keris from Java, US$200, and be okay???

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders.

Hi Fearn,
We can only try to control what happens in this forum and what happens to content use concerning this forum .

You would not be banned .

If you placed your hypothetical keris on ebay no one would ban you .
If you wanted to use forum comments the rules apply ; you must first get permission .

In the case of a simple 'nice Bali keris' no problems .

If you were to post a link to the ebay auction in Swap before the 30 days were over I'd feel concern .

Rick

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

I edited my comment while you were writing. Probably your post won't change, but check. Sorry about the cross-post, and feel free to delete this comment if you want.

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

I think #1 and #2 and well-intentioned, and may well turn out to be draconian and unenforceable.

hmmm....Daconian....perhaps, unenforcable, certainly not.
I don't think you are completely understanding what Rick has suggested here. #1 is, of course, dependent upon the vigilance and cooperation of all our members. If you see someone using a quote you or someone else wrote on a thread to support the sale of their keris send us the prove of it. I know that i would not be happy if someone were using my assessment, given in the spirit of helping a collector better understand what his keris is, used as a sales pitch further down the line. Would you?
The 30 day sales ban that Rick was suggesting was if you want to place the keris in our Swap Forum. We are not about to police the entire internet. It is not our place or intention. But as Rick stated, if you put it on eBay before the 30 days, don't post a link to the auction in the Swap Forum.

Originally Posted by fearn

And how does me having permission work, anyway? I have to email the moderator before I put up the item for sale? Or do I get banned first, and then have to defend myself by forwarding emails and hoping you believe that I didn't just write them myself?

Well first off Fearn, we probably wouldn't know that you quoted someone without permission unless that person first complained to us. You get permission by asking for it, i would say probably through PM. If you want to play it safe i would save your PMs just in case someone who said yes at some point has a change of heart, but that seems like an unlikely scenerio.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fearn

At the very least, I would suggest putting in the rules something about the moderators having sole discretion about what to do to offenders.

Moderator's discretion has always been in practice here, Fearn .

[asomotif]

Pfew !

Quite a bit of discussion going on here.
I did not know my "Dha thread" and sale on the swap had so much effect (just kidding)

But seriously, It is quite clear why this thread started.
There are on occasion new members who only start threads for apprasion and than put them in the swap forum shortly after.
I have seen them come, but also see them go...

Maybe you could implement some system where you have to be an active member for a certain time before you are allowed to post items in the swap ?
These seekers of fortune probably won't have time and energy to actively join his forum without generating sales.

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Maybe you could implement some system where you have to be an active member for a certain time before you are allowed to post items in the swap ?
These seekers of fortune probably won't have time and energy to actively join his forum without generating sales.

That is a good idea Willem, in fact it is one that has already been in discussion among the moderators group and has not been dismissed AFAIK.

[A. G. Maisey]

I really like the way this discussion has developed.

It's not quite the way I thought it might run when I started the thread, and I am a little disappointed that more people have not let us hear their opinions, but the opinions that have been given I personally, value.

Fearn:-

I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of your intent in respect of David's "nice keris" comment.

I understood David's comment in one way, you understood it in another.

It can be quite difficult to transfer meaning and intent clearly and concisely in writing, not infrequently we miss a message that in face to face conversation would be very clear. For this reason I feel that a few extra words at the outset can avoid the need for additional words later. I'd be the first to admit that I tend to overdo this approach a little, but it is much easier and faster to write than it is to think.

I believe it was Mark Twain who apologised to friend :- " I'm sorry for writing such a long letter, but I didn't have time to write a short one."

The points you have made have merit, but I do think that David and Rick have provided the answers that will address the concerns that some of us have in respect of misuse of this Forum.

Jussi:-

Yes, you've identified the exact question that needs clarification:-

"The question basically is then what is the reason for the forums existence?"

I think that Rick and David have now provided this clarification, and its pretty much as I understand it myself.

But you have raised a question that I would like to comment on a little further, and that is the place of appraisal and valuation in this forum.

Appraisal has two meanings. It can mean to assess quality, or it can mean to assess value. In the case of an assessment of quality that is one of the reasons for the existence of this forum.

It is often a bit difficult to assess quality of a keris from photos, and speaking for myself, I often find that when I look at photos of a keris I am filling in details that are not clear from the photos , by reference to my knowledge of that type of keris or workmanship. This is a very defective way of giving an appraisal, but its the best we can do from photos, and I will usually add the caveat of " based upon what I think I can see in these photos".

But when we come to the assessment of value, the difficulties multiply many, many times.

Value is directly related to the price that is placed upon an object. It doesn't mean precisely the same thing as price, but when you get right down to it an appraisal of value is an answer to the question :-

"how much should I pay ( or ask) for this object?"

This answer depends upon a multitude of factors which can be split into specific segments, for example:- rareity, state of preservation, age, type, quality of workmanship, present geographical location, market bouyancy---etc, etc, etc.

In respect of a keris many of the factors within the segments relating to the physical qualities of a keris can only be adequately addressed if we have the keris in hand. An error made in assessment of age or origin of any component part of a keris could have a massive impact upon the value, and thus the price that can be reasonably paid for the keris. This might not matter much when we are talking about keris that are worth only a few hundred dollars, but when we start to look at higher level pieces an error in appraisal can result in a considerable loss to the seller (or buyer).

Geographic location of a keris is another important factor in affixing an estimate of a reasonable price.
Lets say I see an absolutely wonderful piece advertised by a UK dealer. As a collector I want that piece, and because of where it is I know that I cannot bargain for the same price as I would if I were in a street market in Indonesia. So I am prepared to pay what I consider to be a reasonable price from a UK dealer. This would be a totally unreasonable price in almost any other place on the planet, but because of where it is I need to adapt my standards, depending on how much I want it.

So if somebody asks how much something is worth, it really comes down to how much the buyer is prepared to pay, and that will vary according to circumstances, one of the circumstances being the location of the object.

As an extreme example of the application of this philosophy to collecting, I know one collector of keris and other weaponry who only buys from Ebay. He's got a massive collection. He uses sniping software and puts in an extremely low bid on everything that takes his fancy. Most of his bids fail, but when he wins he buys very, very cheap. I won't comment on the quality of his collection, but it is very, very big. And the thing is this:- this man has never paid a single penny more than he was prepared to pay for any item in his collection.

So, for me, appraisal of value, when that appraisal is based on photos, and most particularly when the appraisal is published for all the world to see is something that I simply would not do. It could damage my reputation immeasurably. But giving opinions to friends by private email is a completely different matter.

Rick :-

Re your proposals:-

1)--- agree

2)--- agree in principle, but I would prefer a longer wait period, perhaps 3 months

3)--- agree


David:-

I believe that your comments should have clarified any question as to the purpose of this Keris Warung Kopi, and I cannot disagree with anything that you have said.


I think we might be getting somewhere with this matter. Maybe it has already been settled, but before we set anything in concrete, could we wait a little while to give others who may have a point to make a chance to provide their opinions?

[Rick]

Absolutely , I would like to hear from everyone .

[Gustav]

About point one:

my thought is, if there are unethical dealers, there must be also unethical buyers. There is a saying: every human has his price, and these prices are different.

Other thing is, to be a policeman is not good for every character (even to be a teacher is not good for every character).

About point two:

Since Alan has experience with this subject, keris dealing, so I think his proposal (three months) is to be taken in earnest. It is a big difference.

(For me it is clear, there absolutely cannot be discussions about direct material value or appraisals. )

[A. G. Maisey]

Asomotif, I really do like that "active member" suggestion.

Really.

The swap facility in this site is something very valuable for non-dealers, as I see it. In fact, I don't like the idea of anybody who is a dealer on any level being involved in it at all.

A while back I gave lengthy consideration to using this swap facility myself, but I decided that for me as an experienced dealer to contribute to the forum discussions, and at the same time offer things in the Swap Forum was much too close to being a conflict of interest situation, thus I have never placed any articles for sale in that Forum, and I think only once did I place a link there to my site.

I would like to see the Swap Forum kept solely for the use of collectors, and those of us who are dealers on any level, either a hobby dealer as in my case, or a full-time professional dealer as in some other cases, stay out of it, and let the pure collectors trade between themselves.

The "active member" rule might not be exactly what I would like, but it would go a long way towards cleaning up the content of the Swap Forum.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Rick :-

Re your proposals:-

1)--- agree

2)--- agree in principle, but I would prefer a longer wait period, perhaps 3 months

3)--- agree

this. but make it 90 days per gustav

this should apply to other areas as well...