My first Kerises

Spunjer · 17th November 2014, 03:50 PM

new territory here, fellas. i'm hoping i didn't get blinded by the bling associated with these beauties, and that i made the right choices. as far as i'm concern, they're all Bali pieces, and from the way they look, it took a lot of man-hours to make these beauties. they are very, very intricate, so without further ado, here are my first krises. i will break these up into three different posts, since it's going to be photo-intensive. i would love to hear your comments on my first acquisition.

Spunjer · 17th November 2014, 03:52 PM

here we have the detail on the dress. the first on is covered with silver, and it has a very intricate design all over. i was wondering if the crown on the wrangka means anything.

the second one has a wrangka carved out of a solid piece of ivory. all i can say is, "Wow!". very detailed; so much so that there are life lines on the figure's palm. both sides appears to be of mirror image.

the third one has a beatifully carved what looks like a wayang puppet on the side. these carvings are interspersed with metal, and it appears to be gold washed.

Spunjer · 17th November 2014, 03:56 PM

the third part are the blades. i noticed keris aficionados tend to post the blade pointing up, and David has explained the reason why. two of the blades still have the original stains, while the third one needs to be stained, i think. each one appears to have a different pattern, and i would to know what they are, and what it meant (if there's any meaning behind it). any comments is welcome, and i would love to hear it, as i'm still learning. thanks for looking

David · 17th November 2014, 06:02 PM

Welcome to the family Ron! There's no going back now…

I do love that silver dress. This is the one out of the three that i find most attractive. I'm not sure that i read that as a crown exactly on the wrongko, but i guess that's a possibility.
You ask if you were blinded by the bling and i would say that perhaps just a little. The silver dress looks like very good quality to me. The ivory Kala carving is nice, but i'm not sure the whole ensemble works for me. I haven't seen the fit on these keris in their sheaths (other than the silver one) to know if they were made for the keris, but i suspect they are newer than the blades (nothing wrong with that). Do you feel all these sheaths where made for these blades (i think i remember the silver one had a nice fit).The blades are respectable, but they are not extraordinary examples of the classic Bali form. But that doesn't necessarily make these less collectable. Still a much nicer start to a keris collection than most of us ever had. ;-) You'll remember in our discussion yesterday that for me it is always the blade that is most important. I would probably choose an extraordinary blade in very plain, understated dress over a average blade in fancy gold and ivory dress every time.
….but i do really like that silver dress.

Sajen · 17th November 2014, 08:06 PM

Agree with the most David has written. Some thoughts more: I really like the carving at the ivory wrongko, beautiful! But like David I think that the ivory and silver wrongko much newer as the blades, nothing wrong by this like David write. The wooden scabbard seems old but modified to let it become more fancy, means the metal sleeve and carving are of newer date.
Good start!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2014, 09:45 PM

Ron, all three of these are very nice keris, and I congratulate you on their acquisition.

Yes, it is accepted that the correct way to view a blade is with the point up, and the gandhik to the viewer's left.

I was told that this is the only way in which it is possible to assess the pawakan, the overall visual impression.

This is because when we view a keris, we view it as if it were a man, we apply similar parameters to the ones that we use when we view a man.

Ideally, according to the Javanese ethic, a man will appear to be strong, graceful and humble. If we look at a keris, these same qualities should appear.

When the keris is viewed point up and with the gandhik to the left, the result is that the keris leans slightly to the left, this lean is likened to the posture of a man in the presence of his lord, indicating his humility.

The opposite of this is if a keris too upright, and this upright position in a man would be interpreted as arrogance.

Possibly the most disliked personal attribute of a man in Jawa is arrogance.

I'm talking "Jawa", this is because I know Jawa best and most of my knowledge and understanding comes from there, but much of what I have written can be applied to other places in SE Asia.

There is a widespread belief amongst keris collectors in the world outside Indonesia, that unless a keris is in a scabbard that has been made for it, the integrity of the keris is in some way lessened.

To a degree, this is so. In Javanese philosophy as related to the keris, the keris itself is male, the wrongko is female, the two together are male, and at the same time represent the community as well as the man, just as the man represents not only himself but his community.

Thus, the scabbard as the female companion of the blade should be as a wife to her husband:- his and his alone, however, while a wife may have only one man, a man is expected to have more than one woman.

A man who can accommodate only one woman is regarded as lacking virility, strength, a pleasant personality, and the ability to maintain harmony in human relationships. From this point of view, a man with only one woman is something less than a complete man.

So, just as a man is expected to have more than one woman, so a keris is expected to have more than one scabbard.

In the case of a man, one woman will be (hopefully) his ideal companion and they will fit each other perfectly, this woman may or may not be his first ranked wife. However, the man will have other women who will be more desirable than his ideal companion in some way or another, this may not necessarily be sexual.

Even where a man is unable for some reason to maintain more than one permanent woman in his life, it is accepted that he will inevitably know many women throughout his lifetime. It is no different with a keris:- an old keris will have been in many scabbards, and the one that we find it in when we come across it, is only the most recent of a chain of scabbards.

So, when we align this mode of thought to the keris, it is quite acceptable for a keris to be in a scabbard that was not made originally for that blade, if the fit is acceptable, the beauty of the scabbard can compensate for small inadequacies of fit:- exactly the same as with, say, a man's second or third wife.

As a man and his wife become older they can sometimes, perhaps often, drift apart and no longer follow exactly the same path that they did in their prime years, and if the fit of man to woman was perhaps a little less than perfect when they were young, this can become even more obvious as they get older.

The same thing applies with a keris:- if an old blade and an old scabbard no longer fit particularly well, even to the point of becoming a bad fit, this does not necessarily indicate that the scabbard was not originally made for the blade.

There are other factors to consider in this matter of the fit of a scabbard to a blade.

It is my experience that an old keris in an old scabbard, both of which have remained in their original societies, very seldom display a degree of fit that would indicate that the scabbard was originally made for the blade which it now houses.

This is particularly the case where the scabbard is exceptionally beautiful. These truly beautiful scabbards tend to gravitate to particularly good blades. Again, we can use the human parallel:- superior women tend to gravitate to superior men.

In point of fact, there is virtually no really outstanding material left for making a new scabbard, and when a really excellent piece of wood does come on to the market, the price is always extremely high. Under these conditions good scabbards inevitably get recycled, and an old scabbard of very good material will inevitably command a very high price.

So when we look at a keris, and we ask the question:- "was the scabbard made for the blade?"

There is great deal more to consider than just this bare fact.

My own value system is this:-

A) if both blade and scabbard have some age, I look for a broadly acceptable fit of blade to scabbard, and I assess each part of the complete keris individually, then as a coherent whole.

B) if the scabbard is new, or recent, I look for a good fit of blade to scabbard

C) I accept that keris of differing overall quality, and from different areas have different standards that govern fit of gonjo to scabbard.

This standard that I use is what I have gradually adopted from people who have far greater knowledge than I do in the application of the value systems of the societies that can be considered as keris carrying societies.

Fit of scabbard to blade is often an overrated parameter with keris people in Western societies. There are probably more old keris in perfectly fitting, original scabbards in the West than anywhere in SE Asia. Why? Because these keris were bought new in SE Asia 100 years and more ago, and have grown old in a society outside their society of birth.

In the appraisal and understanding of the keris it is always useful to think of the keris as a man and the scabbard (wrongko) as a woman.

To return to your acquisitions Ron.

Very nice keris, and a wonderful entry to The World of the Keris. All three keris are very pleasing and artistic examples of the Balinese keris. The two darker blades are good examples of middle quality Balinese blades, the blade that is out of stain is very probably Madura, I would need to handle it to be certain, but it displays a number of Madurese physical qualities.

I apologise for the length of this post, I did not set out to write as much as this, but once I began I couldn't stop.

17th November 2014, 03:50 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	My first Kerises new territory here, fellas. i'm hoping i didn't get blinded by the bling associated with these beauties, and that i made the right choices. as far as i'm concern, they're all Bali pieces, and from the way they look, it took a lot of man-hours to make these beauties. they are very, very intricate, so without further ado, here are my first krises. i will break these up into three different posts, since it's going to be photo-intensive. i would love to hear your comments on my first acquisition. Attached Images

17th November 2014, 03:52 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	here we have the detail on the dress. the first on is covered with silver, and it has a very intricate design all over. i was wondering if the crown on the wrangka means anything. the second one has a wrangka carved out of a solid piece of ivory. all i can say is, "Wow!". very detailed; so much so that there are life lines on the figure's palm. both sides appears to be of mirror image. the third one has a beatifully carved what looks like a wayang puppet on the side. these carvings are interspersed with metal, and it appears to be gold washed. Attached Images

17th November 2014, 03:56 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the third part are the blades. i noticed keris aficionados tend to post the blade pointing up, and David has explained the reason why. two of the blades still have the original stains, while the third one needs to be stained, i think. each one appears to have a different pattern, and i would to know what they are, and what it meant (if there's any meaning behind it). any comments is welcome, and i would love to hear it, as i'm still learning. thanks for looking Attached Images

17th November 2014, 06:02 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	Welcome to the family Ron! There's no going back now… I do love that silver dress. This is the one out of the three that i find most attractive. I'm not sure that i read that as a crown exactly on the wrongko, but i guess that's a possibility. You ask if you were blinded by the bling and i would say that perhaps just a little. The silver dress looks like very good quality to me. The ivory Kala carving is nice, but i'm not sure the whole ensemble works for me. I haven't seen the fit on these keris in their sheaths (other than the silver one) to know if they were made for the keris, but i suspect they are newer than the blades (nothing wrong with that). Do you feel all these sheaths where made for these blades (i think i remember the silver one had a nice fit).The blades are respectable, but they are not extraordinary examples of the classic Bali form. But that doesn't necessarily make these less collectable. Still a much nicer start to a keris collection than most of us ever had. ;-) You'll remember in our discussion yesterday that for me it is always the blade that is most important. I would probably choose an extraordinary blade in very plain, understated dress over a average blade in fancy gold and ivory dress every time. ….but i do really like that silver dress.

17th November 2014, 08:06 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,491	Agree with the most David has written. Some thoughts more: I really like the carving at the ivory wrongko, beautiful! But like David I think that the ivory and silver wrongko much newer as the blades, nothing wrong by this like David write. The wooden scabbard seems old but modified to let it become more fancy, means the metal sleeve and carving are of newer date. Good start! Regards, Detlef

17th November 2014, 09:45 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Ron, all three of these are very nice keris, and I congratulate you on their acquisition. Yes, it is accepted that the correct way to view a blade is with the point up, and the gandhik to the viewer's left. I was told that this is the only way in which it is possible to assess the pawakan, the overall visual impression. This is because when we view a keris, we view it as if it were a man, we apply similar parameters to the ones that we use when we view a man. Ideally, according to the Javanese ethic, a man will appear to be strong, graceful and humble. If we look at a keris, these same qualities should appear. When the keris is viewed point up and with the gandhik to the left, the result is that the keris leans slightly to the left, this lean is likened to the posture of a man in the presence of his lord, indicating his humility. The opposite of this is if a keris too upright, and this upright position in a man would be interpreted as arrogance. Possibly the most disliked personal attribute of a man in Jawa is arrogance. I'm talking "Jawa", this is because I know Jawa best and most of my knowledge and understanding comes from there, but much of what I have written can be applied to other places in SE Asia. There is a widespread belief amongst keris collectors in the world outside Indonesia, that unless a keris is in a scabbard that has been made for it, the integrity of the keris is in some way lessened. To a degree, this is so. In Javanese philosophy as related to the keris, the keris itself is male, the wrongko is female, the two together are male, and at the same time represent the community as well as the man, just as the man represents not only himself but his community. Thus, the scabbard as the female companion of the blade should be as a wife to her husband:- his and his alone, however, while a wife may have only one man, a man is expected to have more than one woman. A man who can accommodate only one woman is regarded as lacking virility, strength, a pleasant personality, and the ability to maintain harmony in human relationships. From this point of view, a man with only one woman is something less than a complete man. So, just as a man is expected to have more than one woman, so a keris is expected to have more than one scabbard. In the case of a man, one woman will be (hopefully) his ideal companion and they will fit each other perfectly, this woman may or may not be his first ranked wife. However, the man will have other women who will be more desirable than his ideal companion in some way or another, this may not necessarily be sexual. Even where a man is unable for some reason to maintain more than one permanent woman in his life, it is accepted that he will inevitably know many women throughout his lifetime. It is no different with a keris:- an old keris will have been in many scabbards, and the one that we find it in when we come across it, is only the most recent of a chain of scabbards. So, when we align this mode of thought to the keris, it is quite acceptable for a keris to be in a scabbard that was not made originally for that blade, if the fit is acceptable, the beauty of the scabbard can compensate for small inadequacies of fit:- exactly the same as with, say, a man's second or third wife. As a man and his wife become older they can sometimes, perhaps often, drift apart and no longer follow exactly the same path that they did in their prime years, and if the fit of man to woman was perhaps a little less than perfect when they were young, this can become even more obvious as they get older. The same thing applies with a keris:- if an old blade and an old scabbard no longer fit particularly well, even to the point of becoming a bad fit, this does not necessarily indicate that the scabbard was not originally made for the blade. There are other factors to consider in this matter of the fit of a scabbard to a blade. It is my experience that an old keris in an old scabbard, both of which have remained in their original societies, very seldom display a degree of fit that would indicate that the scabbard was originally made for the blade which it now houses. This is particularly the case where the scabbard is exceptionally beautiful. These truly beautiful scabbards tend to gravitate to particularly good blades. Again, we can use the human parallel:- superior women tend to gravitate to superior men. In point of fact, there is virtually no really outstanding material left for making a new scabbard, and when a really excellent piece of wood does come on to the market, the price is always extremely high. Under these conditions good scabbards inevitably get recycled, and an old scabbard of very good material will inevitably command a very high price. So when we look at a keris, and we ask the question:- "was the scabbard made for the blade?" There is great deal more to consider than just this bare fact. My own value system is this:- A) if both blade and scabbard have some age, I look for a broadly acceptable fit of blade to scabbard, and I assess each part of the complete keris individually, then as a coherent whole. B) if the scabbard is new, or recent, I look for a good fit of blade to scabbard C) I accept that keris of differing overall quality, and from different areas have different standards that govern fit of gonjo to scabbard. This standard that I use is what I have gradually adopted from people who have far greater knowledge than I do in the application of the value systems of the societies that can be considered as keris carrying societies. Fit of scabbard to blade is often an overrated parameter with keris people in Western societies. There are probably more old keris in perfectly fitting, original scabbards in the West than anywhere in SE Asia. Why? Because these keris were bought new in SE Asia 100 years and more ago, and have grown old in a society outside their society of birth. In the appraisal and understanding of the keris it is always useful to think of the keris as a man and the scabbard (wrongko) as a woman. To return to your acquisitions Ron. Very nice keris, and a wonderful entry to The World of the Keris. All three keris are very pleasing and artistic examples of the Balinese keris. The two darker blades are good examples of middle quality Balinese blades, the blade that is out of stain is very probably Madura, I would need to handle it to be certain, but it displays a number of Madurese physical qualities. I apologise for the length of this post, I did not set out to write as much as this, but once I began I couldn't stop.