Types of Damascus Pattern

Gt Obach · 19th October 2011, 03:20 PM

good morning

your making very large assumptions about wootz being poor, and you know what happens when you assume

actually, when wootz is processed well....and you put the carbide where you want it to be... wootz can be an excellent sword steel
( carbide being the white lines in wootz... which are actually little globes in clusters when done properly.... )

-there is a good deal of testing done on the material... i have put both my wootz steel and ancient wootz steel through the paces for a 1hour documentary...
Ric F has done lots of testing on wootz, and has published it on the net and youtube

I've cut tatami mats, pillows, silk scarves, wood dowels, 12 to 15inch cubes of meat ( size of a torso, or thigh )

here is the revelation !!!!
-- of all the things i've cut, the meat offered little .... very little resistance... a pumpkin was more difficult to cut... and that was effortless
-- People have to change their perception that the body is tough and will offer some safety .... it will not
tatami is suppose to be a good material for testing and comparing - it was so easily parted to pieces with a shamshir that we decided to show off... and slice the large roll several times into pieces before the first piece had touched the ground

a sharp shamshir/tulwar will indeed, leave you in pieces

now that is established

the etch on wootz is merely a surface oxide.. it can be smeared or removed through use... it can be renewed at any time through re-etching ... it has no bearing what so ever on the function of the sword

India being a British colony was no doubt encouraged to adopt English steel... otherwise why would they drop hundreds of years of tradition... they did produce their own regular bloom steel... so they did have the option prior to the English visit, to use either wootz or bloom steel

the English did have military standards .... and that does help to control product variability ... so you know what your getting ...

do you not think that Assadallah was a form of standardization.. i do ! ... look at curvature of blade, distal taper, etc ... there are many hints of standards

wootz does work as well as modern plain carbon steels.. i can't tell the difference between wootz and 1050,1060,1075,1080, 1095 carbon steels etc... but we do have alloys such as L6 and s7 that offer very high toughness... ( but where does that toughness come into play ???? )

how does flesh rate on the Rockwell scale of hardness... Swords are meant to cut flesh ...period ! I think you'll find a few rockwell points up or down offers you no comfort

none of this is a surprise .... wootz steel has proved itself through history and wars... no bias from modern books or collectors will change that

A.alnakkas · 19th October 2011, 04:58 PM

Hey guys,

Mr.Obach, I agree with you that persian produced wootz blades are very much standardized, but the majority of them were trade blades.

I have nothing to comment on the durability of wootz as I have zero knowledge of it, but I think mr.Obach is wrong to say that wootz was only made against flesh as metal armor was well into use in the 19th century?

Against flesh, we know that it works well but so does other sharp things (bronze, iron etc even wood and stone) so I dont think mentioning something about sharpness contributes to durability.

Regarding my comment about arabs considering Clauberg superior to persian wootz; I found an old topic by S.AlAnizi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=riyadh) Where AlSufayan (blacksmith that specialize in refitting swords/daggers) said that Persian wootz is inferior to Indian and Clauberg. I dont have any theory regarding this, but its all about the blacksmith and for whom the item is being made for :-)

Gt Obach · 19th October 2011, 07:35 PM

have you tried to cut armor ? try it
you will be surprised, it does its job very well
- the only way to really know is to test it... don't read about it... go and test it to see for your own eyes

I've made chainmail sections and tried to cut it with a blade... the rings on the chain mail were not even welded or riveted and it easily stood up
- place the chain mail on a wood log and tried to cut it with a hatchet ...and i could not... ...it drove the chainmail into the wood of the log and finally, 2 links cut after many chops... now, that is not at all like us... we are soft and not hard like a wood log..... so now imagine this chainmail on something soft bodied and how difficult it would be to cut

also, i've seen several pieces of armor that were wootz... so those plates are steel... much more durable that normal iron

to pierce armor, you will have to concentrate the force on a point... not distribute it over a large area

besides, i think the popularity of armor on the battle field is low...it must have been extraordinarily expensive ...

i will say, wootz is costly and difficult to make... if your equipping an army, it will not be cheap ..... would you say an English saber is better than a Katana ..... No... but it would be easier to equip an army with sabers
- there is your answer

now to debate something of more substance...

Curved swords or Straight swords ......
1796 lc sabre or straight blade French sabre

perhaps another exercise in futility... hooray

ariel · 19th October 2011, 10:45 PM

The "wootz vs. european monosteel" argument is indeed exercise in futility from the contemporary practical point of view. The only relevant point is the still-promulgated insistence of some wootz enthusiasts that wootz as such is a kind of a wonder metal. It is not. Wootz is a heterogenous definition of an alloy used to manufacture blades of widely different compositions and forging. As a result, the final outcomes were also different. Some were excellent by their contemporary criteria, some were simply good, some were substandard. Against it, european monosteel was relatively uniform thanks to the Western insistence on scientific approach and quality control. That's it.
Do I like wootz blades? Of course. Do I wish to have more of them in my collection? Sure. Would I, with my current understanding of their quality, choose a random wootz sword or a random Solingen blade if my life depended on it? Let me think :-)

Gt Obach · 20th October 2011, 03:13 PM

the world changes...

its more than just the " standardization" factor ! Wootz is not something that i could ever see being efficiently produced compared to modern standards.. its a small batch steel by nature ! It is a very clean steel with low alloy content, except for carbon being high .

- to forge it, you must use low forge temp heats therefore it almost alway has a very small grain size ( small grain size help immensely with toughness, while a large grain will be much more brittle )

forgewelding is at very high heat... if you do not take the effort to normalize the steel after... you will have a very large grained steel ... this is a potential pitfall of bloom steel !

also, i do not believe that even the smalltime wootz sword makers would not have some tests to proof a blade before it leaves the shop.. just about any bladesmith i know takes their blade to a piece of hard wood and chops away to test the edge and blade for impact strength

there'll alway be the scammers and peddlers of poor goods, and rigid standards would eliminate that forsure

still, you have to compare wootz to small production bloom steel ... in this respect it is good ( and in my opinion, i'd say better )

ofcourse Walloon, Puddling ... and so on, start down the road to industrialization and mass production ( a whole different barrel of apples )
- a game changer

talk is cheap
take your cheepest wootz sabre and sharpen it as it should be.. hang a 15inch cube of meat from a tree and slice it diagonally

I'll choose wootz

but, i'd never choose either sword for combat, I'll make the implements for war, but i'd never partake ..... remember the fate of that 15 inch cube of meat, remember how effortless it was to cleave in into two massive pieces..... that is a fate i won't ever risk

19th October 2011, 03:20 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	good morning your making very large assumptions about wootz being poor, and you know what happens when you assume actually, when wootz is processed well....and you put the carbide where you want it to be... wootz can be an excellent sword steel ( carbide being the white lines in wootz... which are actually little globes in clusters when done properly.... ) -there is a good deal of testing done on the material... i have put both my wootz steel and ancient wootz steel through the paces for a 1hour documentary... Ric F has done lots of testing on wootz, and has published it on the net and youtube I've cut tatami mats, pillows, silk scarves, wood dowels, 12 to 15inch cubes of meat ( size of a torso, or thigh ) here is the revelation !!!! -- of all the things i've cut, the meat offered little .... very little resistance... a pumpkin was more difficult to cut... and that was effortless -- People have to change their perception that the body is tough and will offer some safety .... it will not tatami is suppose to be a good material for testing and comparing - it was so easily parted to pieces with a shamshir that we decided to show off... and slice the large roll several times into pieces before the first piece had touched the ground a sharp shamshir/tulwar will indeed, leave you in pieces now that is established the etch on wootz is merely a surface oxide.. it can be smeared or removed through use... it can be renewed at any time through re-etching ... it has no bearing what so ever on the function of the sword India being a British colony was no doubt encouraged to adopt English steel... otherwise why would they drop hundreds of years of tradition... they did produce their own regular bloom steel... so they did have the option prior to the English visit, to use either wootz or bloom steel the English did have military standards .... and that does help to control product variability ... so you know what your getting ... do you not think that Assadallah was a form of standardization.. i do ! ... look at curvature of blade, distal taper, etc ... there are many hints of standards wootz does work as well as modern plain carbon steels.. i can't tell the difference between wootz and 1050,1060,1075,1080, 1095 carbon steels etc... but we do have alloys such as L6 and s7 that offer very high toughness... ( but where does that toughness come into play ???? ) how does flesh rate on the Rockwell scale of hardness... Swords are meant to cut flesh ...period ! I think you'll find a few rockwell points up or down offers you no comfort none of this is a surprise .... wootz steel has proved itself through history and wars... no bias from modern books or collectors will change that

19th October 2011, 04:58 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,339	Hey guys, Mr.Obach, I agree with you that persian produced wootz blades are very much standardized, but the majority of them were trade blades. I have nothing to comment on the durability of wootz as I have zero knowledge of it, but I think mr.Obach is wrong to say that wootz was only made against flesh as metal armor was well into use in the 19th century? Against flesh, we know that it works well but so does other sharp things (bronze, iron etc even wood and stone) so I dont think mentioning something about sharpness contributes to durability. Regarding my comment about arabs considering Clauberg superior to persian wootz; I found an old topic by S.AlAnizi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=riyadh) Where AlSufayan (blacksmith that specialize in refitting swords/daggers) said that Persian wootz is inferior to Indian and Clauberg. I dont have any theory regarding this, but its all about the blacksmith and for whom the item is being made for :-)

19th October 2011, 07:35 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	have you tried to cut armor ? try it you will be surprised, it does its job very well - the only way to really know is to test it... don't read about it... go and test it to see for your own eyes I've made chainmail sections and tried to cut it with a blade... the rings on the chain mail were not even welded or riveted and it easily stood up - place the chain mail on a wood log and tried to cut it with a hatchet ...and i could not... ...it drove the chainmail into the wood of the log and finally, 2 links cut after many chops... now, that is not at all like us... we are soft and not hard like a wood log..... so now imagine this chainmail on something soft bodied and how difficult it would be to cut also, i've seen several pieces of armor that were wootz... so those plates are steel... much more durable that normal iron to pierce armor, you will have to concentrate the force on a point... not distribute it over a large area besides, i think the popularity of armor on the battle field is low...it must have been extraordinarily expensive ... i will say, wootz is costly and difficult to make... if your equipping an army, it will not be cheap ..... would you say an English saber is better than a Katana ..... No... but it would be easier to equip an army with sabers - there is your answer now to debate something of more substance... Curved swords or Straight swords ...... 1796 lc sabre or straight blade French sabre perhaps another exercise in futility... hooray

19th October 2011, 10:45 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The "wootz vs. european monosteel" argument is indeed exercise in futility from the contemporary practical point of view. The only relevant point is the still-promulgated insistence of some wootz enthusiasts that wootz as such is a kind of a wonder metal. It is not. Wootz is a heterogenous definition of an alloy used to manufacture blades of widely different compositions and forging. As a result, the final outcomes were also different. Some were excellent by their contemporary criteria, some were simply good, some were substandard. Against it, european monosteel was relatively uniform thanks to the Western insistence on scientific approach and quality control. That's it. Do I like wootz blades? Of course. Do I wish to have more of them in my collection? Sure. Would I, with my current understanding of their quality, choose a random wootz sword or a random Solingen blade if my life depended on it? Let me think :-)

20th October 2011, 03:13 PM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	the world changes... its more than just the " standardization" factor ! Wootz is not something that i could ever see being efficiently produced compared to modern standards.. its a small batch steel by nature ! It is a very clean steel with low alloy content, except for carbon being high . - to forge it, you must use low forge temp heats therefore it almost alway has a very small grain size ( small grain size help immensely with toughness, while a large grain will be much more brittle ) forgewelding is at very high heat... if you do not take the effort to normalize the steel after... you will have a very large grained steel ... this is a potential pitfall of bloom steel ! also, i do not believe that even the smalltime wootz sword makers would not have some tests to proof a blade before it leaves the shop.. just about any bladesmith i know takes their blade to a piece of hard wood and chops away to test the edge and blade for impact strength there'll alway be the scammers and peddlers of poor goods, and rigid standards would eliminate that forsure still, you have to compare wootz to small production bloom steel ... in this respect it is good ( and in my opinion, i'd say better ) ofcourse Walloon, Puddling ... and so on, start down the road to industrialization and mass production ( a whole different barrel of apples ) - a game changer talk is cheap take your cheepest wootz sabre and sharpen it as it should be.. hang a 15inch cube of meat from a tree and slice it diagonally I'll choose wootz but, i'd never choose either sword for combat, I'll make the implements for war, but i'd never partake ..... remember the fate of that 15 inch cube of meat, remember how effortless it was to cleave in into two massive pieces..... that is a fate i won't ever risk