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Old 7th June 2023, 10:37 AM   #1
Gavin Nugent
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Default Java Keris insights please

Attached is one of the few Java Keris or Keris blades I have retained over the years as it appeals to my eye and tastes in a Keris.

Given that I am not learned in the art of Java Keris, I am hoping members could share their insights about the blade.

Like clouds, you can stare and see things all day... I see a stylised Wayang face within.


With thanks

Gavin
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Old 7th June 2023, 03:43 PM   #2
Gustav
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A good blade, Gavin!

My immediate thoughts on it are -

quite nicely sculpted, the obvious shortcoming is the "broken" continuation of Tampingan on Gonjo - the Tampingan on Jogja blades of this age is mostly very slightly curved, this one looks stiff;

Sogokan on the big side for a Jogja blade, Sogokan Wingking seems to be a tiny bit wider;

the Kembang Kacang Pogok is on the small side for me and could point a little bit more up - but this is my personal preference. Also Condong Leleh is for me a bit too slanted. But such simply is the character of this particular Keris;

Pamor control is not very good, and I feel, the smith would have had difficulties to make Gonjo with the same Pamor.

But overall this Keris Dhapur Pasopati with intended or lost Kinatah Panji Pilis is one of the better Nom-Noman blades posted in this forum so far.
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Old 7th June 2023, 07:57 PM   #3
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Hello Gav,

Agree with Gustav, good blade! Gandik looks like made for kinatah, or it's lost??

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 8th June 2023, 04:17 AM   #4
Gavin Nugent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post
A good blade, Gavin!

My immediate thoughts on it are -

quite nicely sculpted, the obvious shortcoming is the "broken" continuation of Tampingan on Gonjo - the Tampingan on Jogja blades of this age is mostly very slightly curved, this one looks stiff;

Sogokan on the big side for a Jogja blade, Sogokan Wingking seems to be a tiny bit wider;

the Kembang Kacang Pogok is on the small side for me and could point a little bit more up - but this is my personal preference. Also Condong Leleh is for me a bit too slanted. But such simply is the character of this particular Keris;

Pamor control is not very good, and I feel, the smith would have had difficulties to make Gonjo with the same Pamor.

But overall this Keris Dhapur Pasopati with intended or lost Kinatah Panji Pilis is one of the better Nom-Noman blades posted in this forum so far.
Thank you so very much Gustav, that has given me a LOT to look in to deeper... maybe someday 30 years from now I may have a better insight of standards.

Thank you too Detlef.

Regarding the Kembang Kacang Pogok. I understand the upturned type you refer to.

At first glance, aggressive was the word I used for this aspect of the blade. The why of this "aggressive" aspect I do not know, but there is within the photos, what looks to be an "eye" shape. Everything about the blade is to me of acute angles and excuse the pun, to the "point".

As I have said before, looking at Keris blades is sometimes like looking at clouds, you see what you want to see. I stylistically see the following, but I do not know if such things culturally were/are ever intended to be imbued in to blades.

Attached is a Wayang Shadow puppet from the British Museum Collection, being Arjuna Sasrabahu who is considered an avatar of Lord Vishnu. The other a modern stylised version that on that angle, better presents the acute straight angle of the nose.
Visually ponderous to me… the nose, the curve in the blade aligned with the pony tail hair, and perhaps the pamor being like hair too.

Just random visualisations that likely don't mean anything to most, but I like to put these things out there as most think in a linear manner, where as I operate laterally.
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Old 21st November 2023, 02:55 PM   #5
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=25

Thanks Alan.

Regarding dhapur, Pasopati.

I understand a lot is in a name, and it is these visual features of the keris that gives them their dhapur name.

You've noted that one of Arjuna's arrows was named Pasopati. Post #2
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2964

Has this subject of Wayang in Keris been given any deeper thought over the last 7 years?

I ask because I am intrigued that I have by sheer chance seen Arjuna clearly within this keris and I cannot unsee it in others of the Pasopati Dhapur now, the features are too distinct.

It seems way more than just being coincidental that the archers face should be at the base of what is effectively representing the arrow by name.

Nothing created was without purpose or meaning and Arjuna and Posapati are one, just as archery teaches the mind and body to become one.
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Old 21st November 2023, 08:48 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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Gavin, there are a couple of red herrings swimming around here.

Firstly, we are stretching things a little to name this keris as dhapur pasupati, it might have been intended as this, but the ricikan do not not align with the specified ricikan.

Then we have the execution of the KK puguk. It is abominable.Stiff, no form at all, as I noted in that other post, the garap of this keris is really journeyman stuff. A normally made KK puguk does not look like this. If your perception of an image of a wayang representation of Arjuno has been influenced by this poorly executed KK then you do need to note what a puguk KK really should look like. According to what I was taught the KK puguk should conjure an image of the nose of buto (ogre, giant), certainly not the image of the nose of a nobleman.

When we think of Arjuno in a wayang context, this is only one of the ways in which he can be pictured. These wayang puppets that we see now were deliberately made un-lifelike in order to get around Islamic prohibitions, the wayang Arjuno form is representative of a class of wayang characters.

Then we have the pasupati ceremony that is performed for all sacred objects at the time of their completion, this ceremony instills the sacred forces into those sacred objects.

At this remove we cannot possibly conjecture the reason for naming a particular keris form "Pasupati", however, the Pasupati form is in Javanese belief a very old form of keris, supposedly first made by Empu Ramadi in 152Saka.

In old Javanese belief, & in current Balinese belief, any sacred object must at its completion pass through the Pasupati Ceremony, this ceremony brings the sacred forces into that sacred object.

If a keris has been made with full inclusion of ceremony & procedure to make it a sacred keris, with sacred power, then it will go through the Pasupati Ceremony when all the physical procedures have been completed.

We cannot just look at something and then interpret what we believe we can see in a single object from a class of objects as the reason for the name of that class of objects. Most especially we cannot do this when we are dealing with objects from societies & cultures that are different from our own, and the name concerned has a multitude of implications attached to it.

An after thought.

Gavin, go to this thread & read post 117 --- in fact the whole thread is worth a read --- you might gain a slightly different perspective.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ak+budo&page=4

Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st November 2023 at 09:50 PM. Reason: After thought
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