Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes) - Page 2

fernando · 10th January 2024, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I think we can say this is most certainly an English cut steel hilt of 1790s mounted with 17th century rapier blade of notably Spanish style and what appears a spurious use of the name SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ...

Who am i, to opposite your diagnosis, Jim. What i wanted to pinpoint in my post 6# is that, even genuine masters incur in misspelings of their names. I wonder if the wordings to be engraved on blades are done, or previously written on paper, by their literate assistants. We tend to believe that a sword is made by one man alone, but there are a myriad of artists 'in town' that complete the whole thing; the master that forges the blade to get all the laurels.
Just look at this sword. Can you believe that, this "piece of junk" was made by any John Doe and the inscription on the blade, "SEBASTIAN ERNANDES", is no other than a forgery ?

Yours humbly ....´

.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2024, 09:17 PM

By the same token Fernando......just who am I to posit such a 'diagnosis'? I thought I was expressing an opinion or idea, as so often happens in actual discussions. There does not have to be a debate. As none of us have a time machine, nor reliable eyewitness accounts of the organization and staffing of the many workshops in Solingen, nor in Toledo or any other blade making center. ....how can 'we' know who actually placed markings or decoration on the blades produced?

With that, which 'we' believes that a sword is made by one man alone? I cannot say I have followed such a notion except perhaps in my earliest years of study as a very young man. It became abundantly clear very soon that swords as a whole were assembled by cutlers, outfitters, armorers or various multi-task oriented entities using components from various producers. The blades themselves came from the various centers discussed.

I am a bit disappointed in the use of the term forgery describing a very nice rapier with a blade having the same makers name SEBASTIAN ERNANDEZ (sic).
I would point out, just as you always so kindly correct my comments, that the term 'spurious' which I used to describe the possible character of this famous Toledo name, misspelled....has NOTHING to do with forgery.
The use of famed Spanish names on the blades made in Solingen were used 'spuriously' along with marks etc. as associations with the traditional quality associated with these Spanish indicators. Often they were obviously of makers long gone, such as SAHAGUM, whose name is virtually ubiquitous on blades from Solingen circulating through Europe as sort of a 'brand'.

So to go to the sword blade in 'discussion' here in the OP. It is clearly a high quality blade (if I can say that). But WAS it made by Sebastian Hernandez (or of course as emphasized...in his shop)?

In Spain, even an illiterate worker in or associated with the shop of maestro Hernandez, would likely know how to spell HERNANDEZ. Notice that the ONLY letter missing is the 'H'. Perhaps I am naive in presuming that this might be the result of phonetic transcription, where the H is silent in the pronunciation of the name.
The German workers who went to Toledo from Solingen to work adopted Spanish versions of their name, by analogy Heinrich Kohl= Enrique Coll or Coel. The variations of that name are noted in various compendiums.
What connection would this imply?
That certainly there were variations in spelling names by the equally varying factors involving those who placed the makers name on the blades.

The point is (and forgive me Roger for creating yet another Tolstoyean missive) that while this blade has resounding quality and style which MAY be truly a Spanish product (and as pointed out, without knowing if the punzone of Hernandez is on the ricasso) it may very well be a Solingen product using that name (spuriously.....in the manner described).

I think the best solution is to find examples of a Hernandez blade with undisputed provenance which would show his favored blade style (fullering etc.) to compare. My reason for suspecting Solingen origin of this blade was not only the misspelling, but the X combinations used along with the name...a convention often seen on other Solingen blades, especially the ANDREA FERARA examples.
But THAT is a whole 'nother' story!

RogerFox · 10th January 2024, 11:06 PM

Honestly the Solingen theory was already pointed out to me by a couple of other blade experts, judging the blade "design" and details... so by now i can say it's the most probable.

10th January 2024, 09:17 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	By the same token Fernando......just who am I to posit such a 'diagnosis'? I thought I was expressing an opinion or idea, as so often happens in actual discussions. There does not have to be a debate. As none of us have a time machine, nor reliable eyewitness accounts of the organization and staffing of the many workshops in Solingen, nor in Toledo or any other blade making center. ....how can 'we' know who actually placed markings or decoration on the blades produced? With that, which 'we' believes that a sword is made by one man alone? I cannot say I have followed such a notion except perhaps in my earliest years of study as a very young man. It became abundantly clear very soon that swords as a whole were assembled by cutlers, outfitters, armorers or various multi-task oriented entities using components from various producers. The blades themselves came from the various centers discussed. I am a bit disappointed in the use of the term forgery describing a very nice rapier with a blade having the same makers name SEBASTIAN ERNANDEZ (sic). I would point out, just as you always so kindly correct my comments, that the term 'spurious' which I used to describe the possible character of this famous Toledo name, misspelled....has NOTHING to do with forgery. The use of famed Spanish names on the blades made in Solingen were used 'spuriously' along with marks etc. as associations with the traditional quality associated with these Spanish indicators. Often they were obviously of makers long gone, such as SAHAGUM, whose name is virtually ubiquitous on blades from Solingen circulating through Europe as sort of a 'brand'. So to go to the sword blade in 'discussion' here in the OP. It is clearly a high quality blade (if I can say that). But WAS it made by Sebastian Hernandez (or of course as emphasized...in his shop)? In Spain, even an illiterate worker in or associated with the shop of maestro Hernandez, would likely know how to spell HERNANDEZ. Notice that the ONLY letter missing is the 'H'. Perhaps I am naive in presuming that this might be the result of phonetic transcription, where the H is silent in the pronunciation of the name. The German workers who went to Toledo from Solingen to work adopted Spanish versions of their name, by analogy Heinrich Kohl= Enrique Coll or Coel. The variations of that name are noted in various compendiums. What connection would this imply? That certainly there were variations in spelling names by the equally varying factors involving those who placed the makers name on the blades. The point is (and forgive me Roger for creating yet another Tolstoyean missive) that while this blade has resounding quality and style which MAY be truly a Spanish product (and as pointed out, without knowing if the punzone of Hernandez is on the ricasso) it may very well be a Solingen product using that name (spuriously.....in the manner described). I think the best solution is to find examples of a Hernandez blade with undisputed provenance which would show his favored blade style (fullering etc.) to compare. My reason for suspecting Solingen origin of this blade was not only the misspelling, but the X combinations used along with the name...a convention often seen on other Solingen blades, especially the ANDREA FERARA examples. But THAT is a whole 'nother' story!

10th January 2024, 11:06 PM	#33
RogerFox Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: Italy Posts: 18	Honestly the Solingen theory was already pointed out to me by a couple of other blade experts, judging the blade "design" and details... so by now i can say it's the most probable.