Malay Klewang?

Moshah · 3rd February 2013, 03:58 PM

Hi there.

I was told that this was actually a Golok Tapik, but I really don't know. Blade was laminated, and light.

Golok Tapik was a part of Malay weaponry (besides the usual keris, golok, parang, badik etc) which were used by Malays in the era of the assassination of the English Governor of Perak then, JWW Birch in Pasir Salak back in 15th century Malaya. Or so I was told.

It looks like a Klewang, and could be a klewang as well. This was rather a grey area for me.

Anybody could help in ID-ing this stuff?

Thanks

Sajen · 3rd February 2013, 04:06 PM

Hi Moshah, first I will post your pictures direct to the thread for better look.

I think that you have there a klewang from South Sumatra, two similar examples are shown in "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" on page 70.

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 3rd February 2013, 04:23 PM

Oh, Hi detlef...

It seems that I have some trouble in getting the attachment right. Too long out from posting around here...

Well, my hunch is answered...but then is this was a so-so klewang or a good one? I can see some markings on the blunt edge of the klewang, but that's that...

I haven't had the book, BTW...

Sajen · 3rd February 2013, 04:36 PM

Hi Moshah, it is nothing, send it to me so you don't have to look at it anymore!!

Seriously, it look good to me but think that the sheath is more recent.

When I am you I would clean the blade and etch it to bring out the lamination.

Best,

Detlef

Moshah · 3rd February 2013, 04:46 PM

Definitely the etching will follow suit, but I do not think it will surfaces anything except an adeg-like lamination...but surely it will get rid of the rust as well

.

Personally, I think the klewang is rather short.

Yeah, scabbard could be a later addition or not original, but the blade should have some age to it, IMHO...

Sajen · 3rd February 2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Personally, I think the klewang is rather short.

The two shown examples in the book are around 50 cm.

Moshah · 3rd February 2013, 04:55 PM

Well then, obviously it was around of the same length..

BTW Detlef, do you have any clue on the three-apiece consecutive horizontal markings at the blunt edge (or shall I say the back?) of the klewang? Could it associate with a specific cultural region, customs or perhaps showing a tribal attribution?

You can see it more clearly on my last pix, or pix # 4

Sajen · 3rd February 2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Well then, obviously it was around of the same length..

BTW Detlef, do you have any clue on the three-apiece consecutive horizontal markings at the blunt edge (or shall I say the back?) of the klewang? Could it associate with a specific cultural region, customs or perhaps showing a tribal attribution?

You can see it more clearly on my last pix, or pix # 4

I don't think that this can be a sign of a tribal attribution but frankly said I know not enough of this sort of klewang.

T. Koch · 3rd February 2013, 06:13 PM

Hi Moshah and thanks for showing it!

It might be the pictures or it might certainly be me - I am super-paranoid about these things - but doesn't the condition of the blade kind of look a bit like an acid dip? I.e. that the blade perhaps has been artificially aged?

I could be completely wrong here and for sure wish it so - I am no specialist - like I said, just paranoid.

Anyway Moshah, I hope it cleans up nicely and hope to see more pics.

Best wishes, - Thor

Moshah · 3rd February 2013, 09:27 PM

Giving to the fact that this kind of things do happen, yes thor I think there is some possibilities of artificial aging and such things. I've seen many of these kind on kerises but definitely I know next to nothing about klewangs.

On what point did you exactly think that acid dip has taken place in this klewang?

kai · 4th February 2013, 12:48 AM

Hello Thor,

Quote:

doesn't the condition of the blade kind of look a bit like an acid dip? I.e. that the blade perhaps has been artificially aged?

Being a bit paranoid does help to prevent making mistakes with collecting...

I'm fairly sure that the blade is antique (or at least old vintage) though; the scabbard is a later replacement as Detlef pointed out already. If anything, I'd scrutinize the silver work, especially if this were coming directly out of Sumatra (where there are workshops busily "upgrading" genuine antique blades for selling with a greater profit margin.

In this case, I guess the discrepancy between the unprotected, rusty blade and the recently polished silver is the main reason for it looking a bit fishy. IMHO it it quite possibly might turn out to be ok/genuine - Moshah, maybe you can add some close-ups of the silver work?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 4th February 2013, 12:55 AM

Hello Moshah,

Quote:

Definitely the etching will follow suit, but I do not think it will surfaces anything except an adeg-like lamination...but surely it will get rid of the rust as well

.

Yes, I'd love to see the laminations more clearly.

Quote:

Personally, I think the klewang is rather short.

These can be even shorter and plain versions are probably utility working/butcher/kitchen tools.

The silver-clad versions are obviously status pieces and of possibly ceremonial usage IMVHO.

Regards,
Kai

Moshah · 4th February 2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

If anything, I'd scrutinize the silver work, especially if this were coming directly out of Sumatra (where there are workshops busily "upgrading" genuine antique blades for selling with a greater profit margin.

If this was the case then I would be worry too

Sorry I haven't got a good camera this time to get a decent shots on the silver works. Definitely doesn't look shiny, no bling-bling there but I guess those workshop surely know better on how to vintage-ly upgrade it, if it was the case with this klewang...

However I did not see a lot of this type of klewang were on sale in the net or curio shops. Or at least not of this type, but we do see some which looks like a cross-over between a klewang and a machete / golok type around. Usually with simple wooden hilt.

I've seen one over the net with the same silver stripes on the back of the edge. As long as it was not a reworked strips, I guess it could well be a ceremonial piece too...

T. Koch · 4th February 2013, 12:13 PM

Mosha, I am not sure at all. It was exactly the newly carved scabbard in combination with the very uniform dispersion of oxidation together with it's color, that made me suspicious. Might also be the photos, as mentioned.

If Kai says it's good to go, I'd trust him 100%!

I am just a novice when it comes to arms collecting, but I am collecting on a very limited budget and I simply can't afford to make mistakes with my funds. It probably also means that I miss out on some good-deal false-negatives, but I'll just have to live with that.

Take care, - Thor

Moshah · 4th February 2013, 01:43 PM

That is how it works with most of the collectors, IMHO.

I always think it is better to be extra careful as it pays. All you need is patience, which is supposedly to be limitless but sometimes you are going to miss a few good things and cringe for the thought of that. However, it is better than cringing for a junk that you wish you won't buy...

I think being extra careful is really a virtue, in this hobby.

Cheers.

kai · 5th February 2013, 10:50 AM

Quote:

If Kai says it's good to go, I'd trust him 100%!

Nah, I also have my share of mistakes on record.

kai · 5th February 2013, 11:15 AM

Hello Moshah,

Quote:

I've seen one over the net with the same silver stripes on the back of the edge. As long as it was not a reworked strips, I guess it could well be a ceremonial piece too...

Those marks are quite commonly found on blades throughout the archipelago and are usually implicated as talismanic.

From what I can glean from your pics, the silverwork seems to be ok. The next step for me would be to mine online museum resources and compare the decoration style of your piece in detail with those examples.

Please keep us posted whatever you come up with!

Regards,
Kai

Moshah · 5th February 2013, 01:16 PM

That should ease my prejudice over the silverworks, Kai. I've only been to Sumatra once (Medan that is - perhaps 15 years ago) and know next to nothing about their "antique upgrades" industry. Based on your info, I think it is alerting and extra careful is needed from now on...

I have been browsing over the net these few days, but then again I found out that this piece and other kelewangs were not exactly of the same type. Perhaps in Zoonevelt's book it stated "south Sumatra" or perhaps in some other sites, but I really need to narrow down its demographic so that I can start researching a specific roots from which this piece was coming from.

On the other hand, I would also like to know more on how did this Sumatran kelewang could end up in Perak, Malaysia. Historically the ties between the Perak's Sultanate (off Malacca's Sultanate) and the Sumatra was really intertwined, so the possibilities was there.

I'm going to start interrogate the dealer soon...

3rd February 2013, 03:58 PM	#1
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Malay Klewang? Hi there. I was told that this was actually a Golok Tapik, but I really don't know. Blade was laminated, and light. Golok Tapik was a part of Malay weaponry (besides the usual keris, golok, parang, badik etc) which were used by Malays in the era of the assassination of the English Governor of Perak then, JWW Birch in Pasir Salak back in 15th century Malaya. Or so I was told. It looks like a Klewang, and could be a klewang as well. This was rather a grey area for me. Anybody could help in ID-ing this stuff? Thanks Attached Images Last edited by Moshah; 3rd February 2013 at 04:19 PM.

3rd February 2013, 04:06 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,468	Hi Moshah, first I will post your pictures direct to the thread for better look. I think that you have there a klewang from South Sumatra, two similar examples are shown in "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" on page 70. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

3rd February 2013, 04:23 PM	#3
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Oh, Hi detlef... It seems that I have some trouble in getting the attachment right. Too long out from posting around here... Well, my hunch is answered...but then is this was a so-so klewang or a good one? I can see some markings on the blunt edge of the klewang, but that's that... I haven't had the book, BTW...

3rd February 2013, 04:36 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,468	Hi Moshah, it is nothing, send it to me so you don't have to look at it anymore!! Seriously, it look good to me but think that the sheath is more recent. When I am you I would clean the blade and etch it to bring out the lamination. Best, Detlef

3rd February 2013, 04:46 PM	#5
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Definitely the etching will follow suit, but I do not think it will surfaces anything except an adeg-like lamination...but surely it will get rid of the rust as well . Personally, I think the klewang is rather short. Yeah, scabbard could be a later addition or not original, but the blade should have some age to it, IMHO...

3rd February 2013, 04:55 PM	#7
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Well then, obviously it was around of the same length.. BTW Detlef, do you have any clue on the three-apiece consecutive horizontal markings at the blunt edge (or shall I say the back?) of the klewang? Could it associate with a specific cultural region, customs or perhaps showing a tribal attribution? You can see it more clearly on my last pix, or pix # 4

3rd February 2013, 06:13 PM	#9
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Moshah and thanks for showing it! It might be the pictures or it might certainly be me - I am super-paranoid about these things - but doesn't the condition of the blade kind of look a bit like an acid dip? I.e. that the blade perhaps has been artificially aged? I could be completely wrong here and for sure wish it so - I am no specialist - like I said, just paranoid. Anyway Moshah, I hope it cleans up nicely and hope to see more pics. Best wishes, - Thor

3rd February 2013, 09:27 PM	#10
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Giving to the fact that this kind of things do happen, yes thor I think there is some possibilities of artificial aging and such things. I've seen many of these kind on kerises but definitely I know next to nothing about klewangs. On what point did you exactly think that acid dip has taken place in this klewang?

4th February 2013, 12:13 PM	#14
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Mosha, I am not sure at all. It was exactly the newly carved scabbard in combination with the very uniform dispersion of oxidation together with it's color, that made me suspicious. Might also be the photos, as mentioned. If Kai says it's good to go, I'd trust him 100%! I am just a novice when it comes to arms collecting, but I am collecting on a very limited budget and I simply can't afford to make mistakes with my funds. It probably also means that I miss out on some good-deal false-negatives, but I'll just have to live with that. Take care, - Thor

4th February 2013, 01:43 PM	#15
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	That is how it works with most of the collectors, IMHO. I always think it is better to be extra careful as it pays. All you need is patience, which is supposedly to be limitless but sometimes you are going to miss a few good things and cringe for the thought of that. However, it is better than cringing for a junk that you wish you won't buy... I think being extra careful is really a virtue, in this hobby. Cheers.

5th February 2013, 01:16 PM	#18
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	That should ease my prejudice over the silverworks, Kai. I've only been to Sumatra once (Medan that is - perhaps 15 years ago) and know next to nothing about their "antique upgrades" industry. Based on your info, I think it is alerting and extra careful is needed from now on... I have been browsing over the net these few days, but then again I found out that this piece and other kelewangs were not exactly of the same type. Perhaps in Zoonevelt's book it stated "south Sumatra" or perhaps in some other sites, but I really need to narrow down its demographic so that I can start researching a specific roots from which this piece was coming from. On the other hand, I would also like to know more on how did this Sumatran kelewang could end up in Perak, Malaysia. Historically the ties between the Perak's Sultanate (off Malacca's Sultanate) and the Sumatra was really intertwined, so the possibilities was there. I'm going to start interrogate the dealer soon...