A Small Dirk for Your Viewing

Terry K · 9th November 2014, 03:50 AM

I never really found out what this was but have had it for a while. It is a very small piece with a nice wooden handle, 20cm overall, blade is 10.5 cm. I thought it was a Naval type dirk for a Midshipman but really do not know. Any idea to where it was made? I figured European. Looks like nickle silver sheath. Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

fernando · 9th November 2014, 03:04 PM

Hi Terry,
I believe this is European.
I wouldn't call it a Navy dirk (too small) but a concealable dagger.
If one recalls, this type of things has various period names, one of which was used by the French: "dague de pute", as it is said that these romantic little daggers were (also) used by salloon girls, hidden between their breasts or boot tops, for self defence.
Some of these may be as early as from the 18th. century; yours would be 19th century ?
Just ignore all the above when some member comes up with a better assessment

.

Shakethetrees · 9th November 2014, 08:11 PM

Because of the blade-conforming scabbard and overall design and proportions, I believe the dirk is French, or from a place where French trained cutlers were catering to a Francophile clientele.

I would date it to the second quarter of the 19th century.

Nice piece, if you ever decide to part with it......

Terry K · 9th November 2014, 10:16 PM

Hi fernando & Shakethetrees,
I thought it would be European but really never thought French. I was afraid it was too small for a naval one, but from the other civilian ones I had seen, (not hardly any) I thought it wouldn't have a metal scabbard, but leather. The loop on the scabbard also made me think military. I had not thought about getting rid of it but I prefer military types.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Terry

Shakethetrees · 10th November 2014, 03:42 AM

Terry,

I have seen several over the years of similar form that, from conventional wisdom, were called "naval dirks".

I don't have my copy handy, but "Swords of the sea services" may be of interest for you to look over.

Midshipmen carried small dirks as a badge of rank, but the forms were more straightforward following Anglo form.

Others that have turned up in old houses in South Louisiana had the lighter, more refined form of yours, some having their original scabbards that could also be form fitting as is yours. My feelings are that these were for the civilian market, carried for personal protection. The American and British types had scabbards that were lozenge or lenticular in cross section, bearing no precise clues of their blades.

Most of the documented Naval dirks, (American or British) I've observed had either brass or brass mounted leather scabbards, engraved and possibly gilded.

Terry K · 10th November 2014, 05:12 AM

[QUOTE=Shakethetrees]Terry,

I have seen several over the years of similar form that, from conventional wisdom, were called "naval dirks".

Shakethetrees,
I have that book and many others on weapons of the sea services and it does not conform to any I saw. As you said they call all kinds of dirks "Naval". I think it is a neat type and was found with a bunch of WW2 items in a house clean out a few years ago, in fact a NSDAP membership pin was attached to it.

Terry

fernando · 10th November 2014, 06:25 PM

A reminder goes for the dimensions of this dagger. With a 20 cms. length and a 10,5 cms. blade is hardly one to go around hanging on an uniform belt or less for naval purposes.
It is a fact that the French fancied these things, to the point that they had a few names for them; besides the mentioned 'dague de pute', they also called them 'romantic', 'dague de jarretires' (garther daggers), 'dagues de petite virtu' (virtue); and even suggestive 'pique couilles' (balls stinger); all connected with the same kind of users and ambiance.
Here is a couple examples with characteristics similar to the one posted.

.

fernando · 10th November 2014, 06:32 PM

And a few of mine, these with different characteristics; maybe Portuguese.

.

Terry K · 12th November 2014, 05:18 PM

fernando,
Thanks much for the explanation and great pictures of those dirks.
Terry

theswordcollector · 14th December 2014, 02:17 PM

Looks French in my opinion. Nice to see it has it's original scabbard. Regarding naval dagger's many sailors and deck hands carried non regulation daggers and these were just as well carried as a small defense weapons by civilians alike. Great piece :-)

9th November 2014, 03:50 AM	#1
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	A Small Dirk for Your Viewing I never really found out what this was but have had it for a while. It is a very small piece with a nice wooden handle, 20cm overall, blade is 10.5 cm. I thought it was a Naval type dirk for a Midshipman but really do not know. Any idea to where it was made? I figured European. Looks like nickle silver sheath. Your opinions would be greatly appreciated. Attached Images

10th November 2014, 06:25 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	A reminder goes for the dimensions of this dagger. With a 20 cms. length and a 10,5 cms. blade is hardly one to go around hanging on an uniform belt or less for naval purposes. It is a fact that the French fancied these things, to the point that they had a few names for them; besides the mentioned 'dague de pute', they also called them 'romantic', 'dague de jarretires' (garther daggers), 'dagues de petite virtu' (virtue); and even suggestive 'pique couilles' (balls stinger); all connected with the same kind of users and ambiance. Here is a couple examples with characteristics similar to the one posted. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 10th November 2014 at 06:39 PM.

10th November 2014, 06:32 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	And a few of mine, these with different characteristics; maybe Portuguese. . Attached Images

9th November 2014, 03:04 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi Terry, I believe this is European. I wouldn't call it a Navy dirk (too small) but a concealable dagger. If one recalls, this type of things has various period names, one of which was used by the French: "dague de pute", as it is said that these romantic little daggers were (also) used by salloon girls, hidden between their breasts or boot tops, for self defence. Some of these may be as early as from the 18th. century; yours would be 19th century ? Just ignore all the above when some member comes up with a better assessment .

9th November 2014, 08:11 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Because of the blade-conforming scabbard and overall design and proportions, I believe the dirk is French, or from a place where French trained cutlers were catering to a Francophile clientele. I would date it to the second quarter of the 19th century. Nice piece, if you ever decide to part with it......

9th November 2014, 10:16 PM	#4
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Hi fernando & Shakethetrees, I thought it would be European but really never thought French. I was afraid it was too small for a naval one, but from the other civilian ones I had seen, (not hardly any) I thought it wouldn't have a metal scabbard, but leather. The loop on the scabbard also made me think military. I had not thought about getting rid of it but I prefer military types. Thanks for your thoughts, Terry

10th November 2014, 03:42 AM	#5
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Terry, I have seen several over the years of similar form that, from conventional wisdom, were called "naval dirks". I don't have my copy handy, but "Swords of the sea services" may be of interest for you to look over. Midshipmen carried small dirks as a badge of rank, but the forms were more straightforward following Anglo form. Others that have turned up in old houses in South Louisiana had the lighter, more refined form of yours, some having their original scabbards that could also be form fitting as is yours. My feelings are that these were for the civilian market, carried for personal protection. The American and British types had scabbards that were lozenge or lenticular in cross section, bearing no precise clues of their blades. Most of the documented Naval dirks, (American or British) I've observed had either brass or brass mounted leather scabbards, engraved and possibly gilded.

10th November 2014, 05:12 AM	#6
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	[QUOTE=Shakethetrees]Terry, I have seen several over the years of similar form that, from conventional wisdom, were called "naval dirks". Shakethetrees, I have that book and many others on weapons of the sea services and it does not conform to any I saw. As you said they call all kinds of dirks "Naval". I think it is a neat type and was found with a bunch of WW2 items in a house clean out a few years ago, in fact a NSDAP membership pin was attached to it. Terry

12th November 2014, 05:18 PM	#9
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	fernando, Thanks much for the explanation and great pictures of those dirks. Terry

14th December 2014, 02:17 PM	#10
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	Looks French in my opinion. Nice to see it has it's original scabbard. Regarding naval dagger's many sailors and deck hands carried non regulation daggers and these were just as well carried as a small defense weapons by civilians alike. Great piece :-)