Indo-Arab Matchlock ?

Norman McCormick · 16th April 2011, 03:19 PM

Hi,
Picked up a couple of these recently and really quite taken with them. Would really appreciate any and all info that you might have re these pieces, apart from what I've read on the Forum the net seems rather reticent about these guns. The barrel bands are of low grade silver apart from one which is brass, this one needs repaired hence the green string to keep it in place. There is, as you can see, a disc nailed on the butt with the initials B.W.G. and the number 12, any ideas? Many thanks in advance for any and all replies.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Will post the other one asap.

fernando · 17th April 2011, 02:52 PM

Hi Norman,
Nice piece, with a nice barrel

But i will not say much, as you might get excited and try to shoot it

.
Bands in low silver are an added value, i would say.
The brass disk with the marks is also a valuable detail; i love marks

.
If you figure out what those initials and number mean ... arsenal, regimental or even (British) inventory, let us know.
Ward and other connoisseurs can have a say about this example

.

Norman McCormick · 17th April 2011, 10:06 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for your input. The only rifles I tend to shoot these days are made by Messrs Anschutz and Co. and as much as I would love to give this one a try my sensible side, plus the wife, says absolutely not. The initialled and numbered disc is a bit of a mystery, I'm hoping some of the Forumites might have some ideas. I've been in touch with Ward and he reckons barrel is Hyderabad 18thC maybe early and the present stock/barrel combination dates from last quarter 19thC. Thanks again for your comments.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 17th April 2011, 10:20 PM

Nice one mate.
I'd say the silver 'dog tag' is an empire inventory. Just an unusual type.
I like these.
The phrase 'a lot of bang for your buck' seem to have been invented with these in mind.

Norman McCormick · 17th April 2011, 11:23 PM

Hi Gene,
Thanks for your interest. The inventory suggestion by yourself and Fernando seems to be a logical idea. I would agree that this type of item seems to be under-rated i.e. 'a lot of bang for your buck' I wouldn't mind it staying that way

more for us 'odd folk' to collect

. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 17th April 2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Thanks for your interest. The inventory suggestion by yourself and Fernando seems to be a logical idea. I would agree that this type of item seems to be under-rated i.e. 'a lot of bang for your buck' I wouldn't mind it staying that way

more for us 'odd folk' to collect

. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

A lot of Indian Toradors seem to have armoury/inventory numbers stamped into the stocks, initials and a number.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=matchlock

Norman McCormick · 19th April 2011, 08:39 PM

Hi,
Anybody care to comment on the barrel on this one, it appears to be of better quality and manufacture than that on No2.
Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 19th April 2011, 08:57 PM

Looks like it's been in cleaned with the barrel off recently, do the bands slip off? If so you can easily dismantle it and have a better look at the Barrel.

Norman McCormick · 19th April 2011, 10:01 PM

Hi Gene,
Guilty as charged, when I got these two the barrels were 'tubes of metal covered in rust'. I have had them both apart, cleaned them a bit more than I would normally have liked but to be frank 'needs must etc etc' or all I would have had were two sticks with a corroded looking tube bound to each with verdigris covered bands ( the low grade silver is copper rich). I'm not actually sure how this type of barrel was made and was looking for info re this process.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I could dismount the barrel and photograph it if that would help.

Atlantia · 19th April 2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Guilty as charged, when I got these two the barrels were 'tubes of metal covered in rust'. I have had them both apart, cleaned them a bit more than I would normally have liked but to be frank 'needs must etc etc' or all I would have had were two sticks with a corroded looking tube bound to each with verdigris covered bands ( the low grade silver is copper rich). I'm not actually sure how this type of barrel was made and was looking for info re this process.
My Regards,
Norman

You need Ward to come into this discussion. His collection is jaw-dropping.
The barrel is nice. the 'damascus twist' look is interesting, I'm not sure if it's etched into the steel or part of the construction.
Ward'll be able to tell ya I'm sure.
Any marks on the barrel?

Norman McCormick · 19th April 2011, 10:29 PM

Hi Gene,
I've been in touch with Ward and he reckons the barrel is ripe for etching. The problem I have now is that I have just moved, two weeks, into a brand spanking new apartment with all new fixtures and fittings and if I started messing around with any form of 'chemistry' the wife would have my 'manly bits' for a pendant. I have one particular friend with the necessary garage space for tinkering but he is in Norway at the moment, I'll grab him by the ear when he gets back. In the meantime any suggestions how to go about etching a 4ft+ barrel, plastic pipe I suppose? Thanks again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

ward · 20th April 2011, 12:51 AM

plastic sewer pipe works great cement a cap on one end and just tape down the other end. works well with various acids or salts. this one might work with a slow etch. you have a lot of choices. if you want to go cheap use urine. any fruit juice or vinegar type will work make sure you plug the muzzzle and toch hole.

Norman McCormick · 20th April 2011, 05:03 PM

Hi Ward,
Thanks for the advice, any particular preparation I should do to the barrel before etching? Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 20th April 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... and if I started messing around with any form of 'chemistry' the wife would have my 'manly bits' for a pendant ...

Is this a Scottish tradition, norman ?

-

Norman McCormick · 20th April 2011, 05:15 PM

Hi Fernando,
Ah, the secret of the 'sporran' is out

Kind Regards,
Norman.

ward · 20th April 2011, 09:02 PM

make sure the barrell is absolutly free of any oils of any sort. a quick ammonia rinse will work. soap will work just make sure it is very well rinsed. even windex will work. The differene in a fast etch or slow is in that a fast etch more gray will be brought out than black. It can also be deeper. Since the damascus can be made of so many different elements getting black is no guarentee and can only be hoped for. another etch you can try is using horse manure and urine. These are more traditional types and take longer but the results are often better.

Norman McCormick · 20th April 2011, 11:18 PM

Hi Ward,
Thanks again for the advice, fruit juice or vinegar will probably be the way I'll go. Could you suggest an approximate time scale for immersion in the etchant?
My Regards,
Norman.

ward · 21st April 2011, 01:44 AM

this is where the fun begins. it depends on what was used to make the damascus and what the ph level of your acid are. viniger alone is sold in so many levels of acid and on top of that depends how much you dilute it. suggetion only yes this is your science project. leave it in for a day quick wash it with a hose leave it for 3 days check at 7 last at 14. fruit juices include pinaple, tomato,lime,orange, even ketshup tomato and vinegar. whostershire will even work. wine if you leave it out a day or so. tell wife to clean the cubbords since you just moved throw in blender and you are set. the fun gets to be if you ever want to reproduce the results or explain those dark stains or etch in the pots to the wife.

Norman McCormick · 21st April 2011, 06:52 PM

Hi Ward,
Thanks again for the guidance, not sure if I can actually 'tell' the wife to clean out cupboards or it might turn out re Fernando's last post.
My Regards,
Norman.

TN Hillbilly · 23rd April 2011, 02:13 AM

Hello All,

I'm new to this field of collecting.

Why does the owner want to acid etch the cleaned barrel of the matchlock?

Is it done to make the "Damascus twist" pattern stand out in the barrel material (like the 1800's era American black powder shotgun barrels)?

Thank you for tolerating my beginner's question.
TN Hillbilly

ward · 23rd April 2011, 04:59 PM

yes the shotgun damascus you are referering to was done as a cheap copy of the original damascus process. If you look thru the threads you will see various patterns that the smiths used to work the steel and iron.

Norman McCormick · 23rd April 2011, 06:32 PM

Hi Ward,
What is the purpose of the rib running along the top of the barrel, is it from the method of manufacture?
My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 25th April 2011, 02:00 AM

Hi Norman. Nice piece. I agree with others about the Inventory Tag. At least that would be my first guess. The barrel, Hmmmm. Maybe twisted steel? Maybe Damascus? The stock appears more Persian influenced in one respect, but somewhat Turkish in another? A nice piece to study and discuss. Yes those of us who collect (and in my case shoot) these guns are considered some what of odd balls in the shooting fraternaty.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th April 2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Picked up a couple of these recently and really quite taken with them. Would really appreciate any and all info that you might have re these pieces, apart from what I've read on the Forum the net seems rather reticent about these guns. The barrel bands are of low grade silver apart from one which is brass, this one needs repaired hence the green string to keep it in place. There is, as you can see, a disc nailed on the butt with the initials B.W.G. and the number 12, any ideas? Many thanks in advance for any and all replies.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Will post the other one asap.

Great pictures of the Torador . I have a small collection of Indo-Arab "Abu Futtilla" (Father of the Match) barrels some in good condition others blown and missing much of their barrels having exploded at the first weld. One day I will get round to restoring them. Found in Oman. The brass cases are for ready made up charges and would be worn in a cross belt... nice and rare!

Rick · 28th April 2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TN Hillbilly

Hello All,

I'm new to this field of collecting.

Why does the owner want to acid etch the cleaned barrel of the matchlock?

Is it done to make the "Damascus twist" pattern stand out in the barrel material (like the 1800's era American black powder shotgun barrels)?

Thank you for tolerating my beginner's question.
TN Hillbilly

Hi and welcome !

My first introduction to 'damascus' barrels was a pair of Parker 12 ga. dbl barrel shotguns from my Grandfather's estate .

Unfortunately they wound up in a Burglar's hands .

Norman McCormick · 29th April 2011, 12:42 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Thanks for your interest, it would be nice to see some of those barrels restored to their former glory.
My Regards,
Norman.

16th April 2011, 03:19 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Indo-Arab Matchlock ? Hi, Picked up a couple of these recently and really quite taken with them. Would really appreciate any and all info that you might have re these pieces, apart from what I've read on the Forum the net seems rather reticent about these guns. The barrel bands are of low grade silver apart from one which is brass, this one needs repaired hence the green string to keep it in place. There is, as you can see, a disc nailed on the butt with the initials B.W.G. and the number 12, any ideas? Many thanks in advance for any and all replies. Regards, Norman. P.S. Will post the other one asap. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th April 2011 at 05:45 PM.

20th April 2011, 12:51 AM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	sewer pipe plastic sewer pipe works great cement a cap on one end and just tape down the other end. works well with various acids or salts. this one might work with a slow etch. you have a lot of choices. if you want to go cheap use urine. any fruit juice or vinegar type will work make sure you plug the muzzzle and toch hole.

20th April 2011, 09:02 PM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	prep work make sure the barrell is absolutly free of any oils of any sort. a quick ammonia rinse will work. soap will work just make sure it is very well rinsed. even windex will work. The differene in a fast etch or slow is in that a fast etch more gray will be brought out than black. It can also be deeper. Since the damascus can be made of so many different elements getting black is no guarentee and can only be hoped for. another etch you can try is using horse manure and urine. These are more traditional types and take longer but the results are often better.

21st April 2011, 01:44 AM	#18
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	etching this is where the fun begins. it depends on what was used to make the damascus and what the ph level of your acid are. viniger alone is sold in so many levels of acid and on top of that depends how much you dilute it. suggetion only yes this is your science project. leave it in for a day quick wash it with a hose leave it for 3 days check at 7 last at 14. fruit juices include pinaple, tomato,lime,orange, even ketshup tomato and vinegar. whostershire will even work. wine if you leave it out a day or so. tell wife to clean the cubbords since you just moved throw in blender and you are set. the fun gets to be if you ever want to reproduce the results or explain those dark stains or etch in the pots to the wife.

23rd April 2011, 04:59 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	damascus yes the shotgun damascus you are referering to was done as a cheap copy of the original damascus process. If you look thru the threads you will see various patterns that the smiths used to work the steel and iron.

17th April 2011, 02:52 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Norman, Nice piece, with a nice barrel But i will not say much, as you might get excited and try to shoot it . Bands in low silver are an added value, i would say. The brass disk with the marks is also a valuable detail; i love marks . If you figure out what those initials and number mean ... arsenal, regimental or even (British) inventory, let us know. Ward and other connoisseurs can have a say about this example .

17th April 2011, 10:06 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, Thanks for your input. The only rifles I tend to shoot these days are made by Messrs Anschutz and Co. and as much as I would love to give this one a try my sensible side, plus the wife, says absolutely not. The initialled and numbered disc is a bit of a mystery, I'm hoping some of the Forumites might have some ideas. I've been in touch with Ward and he reckons barrel is Hyderabad 18thC maybe early and the present stock/barrel combination dates from last quarter 19thC. Thanks again for your comments. My Regards, Norman.

17th April 2011, 10:20 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Nice one mate. I'd say the silver 'dog tag' is an empire inventory. Just an unusual type. I like these. The phrase 'a lot of bang for your buck' seem to have been invented with these in mind.

17th April 2011, 11:23 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gene, Thanks for your interest. The inventory suggestion by yourself and Fernando seems to be a logical idea. I would agree that this type of item seems to be under-rated i.e. 'a lot of bang for your buck' I wouldn't mind it staying that way more for us 'odd folk' to collect . Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

19th April 2011, 08:39 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Anybody care to comment on the barrel on this one, it appears to be of better quality and manufacture than that on No2. Regards, Norman.

19th April 2011, 08:57 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks like it's been in cleaned with the barrel off recently, do the bands slip off? If so you can easily dismantle it and have a better look at the Barrel.

19th April 2011, 10:01 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gene, Guilty as charged, when I got these two the barrels were 'tubes of metal covered in rust'. I have had them both apart, cleaned them a bit more than I would normally have liked but to be frank 'needs must etc etc' or all I would have had were two sticks with a corroded looking tube bound to each with verdigris covered bands ( the low grade silver is copper rich). I'm not actually sure how this type of barrel was made and was looking for info re this process. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I could dismount the barrel and photograph it if that would help.

19th April 2011, 10:29 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gene, I've been in touch with Ward and he reckons the barrel is ripe for etching. The problem I have now is that I have just moved, two weeks, into a brand spanking new apartment with all new fixtures and fittings and if I started messing around with any form of 'chemistry' the wife would have my 'manly bits' for a pendant. I have one particular friend with the necessary garage space for tinkering but he is in Norway at the moment, I'll grab him by the ear when he gets back. In the meantime any suggestions how to go about etching a 4ft+ barrel, plastic pipe I suppose? Thanks again for your interest. My Regards, Norman.

20th April 2011, 05:03 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ward, Thanks for the advice, any particular preparation I should do to the barrel before etching? Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

20th April 2011, 05:15 PM	#15
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, Ah, the secret of the 'sporran' is out Kind Regards, Norman.

20th April 2011, 11:18 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ward, Thanks again for the advice, fruit juice or vinegar will probably be the way I'll go. Could you suggest an approximate time scale for immersion in the etchant? My Regards, Norman.

21st April 2011, 06:52 PM	#19
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ward, Thanks again for the guidance, not sure if I can actually 'tell' the wife to clean out cupboards or it might turn out re Fernando's last post. My Regards, Norman.

23rd April 2011, 02:13 AM	#20
TN Hillbilly Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1	Hello All, I'm new to this field of collecting. Why does the owner want to acid etch the cleaned barrel of the matchlock? Is it done to make the "Damascus twist" pattern stand out in the barrel material (like the 1800's era American black powder shotgun barrels)? Thank you for tolerating my beginner's question. TN Hillbilly

23rd April 2011, 06:32 PM	#22
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ward, What is the purpose of the rib running along the top of the barrel, is it from the method of manufacture? My Regards, Norman.

25th April 2011, 02:00 AM	#23
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Indo-Persian Matchlock Hi Norman. Nice piece. I agree with others about the Inventory Tag. At least that would be my first guess. The barrel, Hmmmm. Maybe twisted steel? Maybe Damascus? The stock appears more Persian influenced in one respect, but somewhat Turkish in another? A nice piece to study and discuss. Yes those of us who collect (and in my case shoot) these guns are considered some what of odd balls in the shooting fraternaty.

29th April 2011, 12:42 PM	#26
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ibrahiim, Thanks for your interest, it would be nice to see some of those barrels restored to their former glory. My Regards, Norman.