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28th September 2008, 07:27 PM | #1 | |
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Hi Michael,
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Text and gun from the great collection of Rainer Daehnhardt, as illustrated in his work 'Homens Espadas e Tomates' (1997). Fernando . |
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2nd October 2008, 06:34 PM | #2 |
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Also amazing is that this Malabar example doesn't have a firing mechanism, having to be ignited manualy.
What can you tell us about this, Michael ? Any correction to its dating ? Fernando |
19th October 2008, 11:40 PM | #3 | |
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Quote:
Hi Fernando, Sorry to have to destroy a possible myth but Rainer Daehnhardt's gun is far from being European and/or early 16th century. The barrel is clearly Indian, 18th/19th centuries, the stock is a crude modern reproduction missing only the tiniest touch of original German style... Mind: hooks were never parts of the stocks but only of the iron barrels! Otherwise they would have made no sense at all. Michael |
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20th October 2008, 12:33 AM | #4 | ||||
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Hi Michael, thanks a lot for your coments.
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Sorry Michael, but these are all doubts from a layman like me. I am not worried about this specimen being a mith, nor about Daehnhardt's sincerity; i don't like helping to build gurus. But i need to be sure to myself that this thing is a fake ... to the extent that i can tell it in his face when i see him. Thanks again Fernando |
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20th October 2008, 03:04 AM | #5 |
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I think that the shearing force of the recoil would break off the hook unless it was heavily reinforced. Of course, a metal hook is simly a reinforced wooden one without the wood.
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20th October 2008, 06:47 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
You are doubtlessly right, Ed: a wooden hook set against a castle wall with the muzzle sticking out the fire slit would not have stood the immense recoil. Mind that the barrels at those times were filled up with (poor) black powder by two thirds of their length! Michael |
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20th October 2008, 07:08 PM | #7 |
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Hi Fernando,
Let's cut a long story short: You are right in assuming that this type of hooked stock originally never existed - neither in India nor in Europe. The one that you illustrated must be modern, for what purpose ever. As Ed supposed, a wooden hook would never have stood the recoil - please see my reply of today to his posting. This is due to the graining of the wood. Calling this crude phantasy stock a fake would imply a bad intention on the maker's side. I do not mean to put a suspicion on anyone. This is not what this forum is for, I believe. Just do not take this gun for an original, enough said. Michael |
20th October 2008, 07:58 PM | #8 | |
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Hi Michael
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But good faith fits in this Forum as it fits anywhere. If a person quotes an item as an early specimen, implicitely omitting it is a replica or a modern reproduction, such person is lacking transparency ... here or anywhere in the world. I know this author for some ten years; i don't think he has a necessity to 'sell cat for hare'. I can allways find a way, with the best of my diplomacy (?), to ask him why the specimen support text drives us to beleive the gun is an original, when it is not. My respects Fernando |
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20th October 2008, 09:48 PM | #9 | |
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Yes but it would never have combusted. |
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20th October 2008, 09:59 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
Please help my aged mind along, Ed! Michael |
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20th October 2008, 07:32 PM | #11 | |
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Don't i see that the Berne Harquebus has the hook peened through the stock ? On the other hand, isn't the system of casting the hook to the barrel a 'third generation' development ? If i well understand, in the first step the gun had a gunstock with a wooden shoulder on the underside, as shown in a specimen in the museum of Pilsen, which dates to around 1400. But as this design involved severe stress to the wood, which did not withstand the strain for long, the next step was the development of an iron hook with bands or nails being fitted to the shaft, further improved by positioning the hook on the barrel with a band and securing it in the shaft with a cross pin. It was only after this that, the hook was either forged directly on to the barrel or cast with it, when of bronze. This is the way i understood an article written by Bernhard Rietsche, in his work Meine gotischen Handfeuerrohre (page 47), which was gently passed to me by a notable person in this Forum . However i know i don't have the minimum preparation to discuss this subject, so i beg you to correct me if or where i am wrong . Fernando |
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20th October 2008, 07:41 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
As there are lots of early guns in both Berne and Pilsen, please post pictures of the two pieces you quoted. Michael |
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20th October 2008, 08:19 PM | #13 | |
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The Berne specimen seems to be quite popular, as largely divulged in the Internet. It is also, for example, in Clephan's work 'An outline of the History and Development of Hand Firearms' (page 47). I also happen to have a picture of it, myself. But again, i may obviously be labouring in error, and confusing the whole thing. Fernando |
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