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Old 9th August 2007, 01:46 PM   #1
VVV
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Default Bali Keris for classification

I would be grateful if those of you who knows about Balinese (or Lombok?) classifications could help me with this Keris (dapur, pamor etc.)?
Please note that it has a Pedang-like pucuk.

Michael
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Old 9th August 2007, 01:58 PM   #2
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Unusual pamor.
Is it possible to see the ( Bali?) hit?
Selut's stone seems to be mineral stone (or glass?) with a piece of coloured paper on the bottom.
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Old 9th August 2007, 02:23 PM   #3
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It's a Gerantiman.

Michael
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Old 10th August 2007, 07:53 AM   #4
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Beautiful Lombok hit. It is made by thin stripes of metal (silver) that weaved their shapes one in the other on a section with changeable diameter (...up to 1.000.0000 waves on 1 m.q. .... the same of silk isfahan carpet )

The Naga on the base of blade could be done in a later time
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Old 10th August 2007, 09:39 AM   #5
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Thanks for your comments Marco!

How do you know that the hilt is Lombok, and not Bali?
On the Naga, the tongue is flexible. Is that usual for a later Naga?
Below two additional detail pictures for your evaluation and comments.

Michael
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Old 10th August 2007, 09:59 AM   #6
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Michael
The hilt could be a Bali one too.
I said Lombok because in Bali is easy to listen bali people speak about gerantiman handle as " a Lombok piece" ... probably because gerantiman is very usual in Lombok keris.
Sometimes the tongue in naga's keris is flexible (the same always in old "Giava classic" naga wood work)
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Old 11th August 2007, 05:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
Michael
The hilt could be a Bali one too.
I said Lombok because in Bali is easy to listen bali people speak about gerantiman handle as " a Lombok piece" ... probably because gerantiman is very usual in Lombok keris.

Dear Marco and Michael,
Lombok people have the same keris and sheath as Bali. But "gerantim" hilt, that is specific Lombok. Although you may find such hilt in used also in Karangasem (Bali). There was time, when Lombok had special relation with Bali. This was "told" too via the name of their "favorite" pamor: "tambangan badung" by Lombok people. "Tambang" (according to a lombokese/sasak, Mr Alwi Moerad -- my source) means big rope. And Badung, is an important region in the kingdom era in Bali (the name of Badung still exists till now).

Lombokese also uses balinese type of "danganan" (hilt) such as Togogan (hilt with friendly demon face or "patung perabu" -- king statue), bondolan (standard wooden bali hilt) and cekah solas (with kind of wringkling carving in the middle of the hilt).

And about the blade. Any lombok keris blade with relief, they classify those kind of kerises as "keris tantri" (keris which its gandhik has carving motives such as pendeta or priest, naga and elephant)...

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Old 11th August 2007, 04:24 PM   #8
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Michael, thanks for showing this beautiful and unusal keris. I am really just guessing, but i am willing to go along with Lombok as an origin based more on the blade than anything else. It is my understanding that they went for more unusal daphurs in Lombok and this one certainly seems unusual to me. Hilts and sheaths can always be changed out so they are not the best proof of origin...and it would seem from the fit of the blade in the sarong that this is not an original marriage.
The naga seems very unusal to me as well because it has wings, and if i am not mistaken, a leg and paw along the bottom, so i guess it is actually meant as a composite animal (naga, garuda, singo???). Very interesting indeed. I can't really tell from these photos if this is orginal to the blade, but it seems possible that it is. Was there any provenence when you acquired it?
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Old 11th August 2007, 04:56 PM   #9
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Thanks all for your comments!

On the fit I think it's original to the blade. The problem is that almost all horn and ivory sheaths shrinks a bit here in Scandinavia. It's the same with all my keris.
On the provenence it's eBay a month ago and US...

Ganja, on keris tantri, do you know what it would be called without the "tantri"?

Michael
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Old 11th August 2007, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Ganja, on keris tantri, do you know what it would be called without the "tantri"?

Michael

Hi Michael,
I would call it "dhapur garuda-naga" (of course, this Java name is not a proper name for a balinese keris..). You may compare with these javanese kerises with relief: "garuda" (giant eagle?) and old dhapur of "paksi naga liman" (garuda-naga-elephant)...

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Old 12th August 2007, 12:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Please note that it has a Pedang-like pucuk.

Michael

Hi Michael,
The uniqueness of your lombok/bali keris lies in the dhapur, keris with pedang (sword) "sabet-suduk" details. I think, there is no "pakem" name on this keris. So you may call it based on its details.

It is not usual, keris with details of pedang (sword). And in your keris, with pedang "sabet-suduk" (whip and stab, correct me if I'm wrong). With unusual motive too: naga headed garuda..

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Old 16th August 2007, 03:13 PM   #12
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Hi Ganja,

Thanks for your comments.
Do you know anything about the symbolism/attributes of a Garuda-Naga?
I have also been told that another name of it is a Naga Lar Seluman Kenci (sorry if the description words are in the wrong order as my Indonesian language abilities are mostly used for ordering food?).

Michael
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Old 18th August 2007, 06:39 AM   #13
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According to Karsten's krisdisk
Quote:
If the neck of the Naga is equipped with wings, which is rarely seen, it is called Dapor Lar Munda (Lar= wing and Munda=snake)

Could that be what we are seeing here or am I being a bit thick. It is not clear in the krisdisk as to which geographical keris region this name applies
cheers
DrD
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Old 19th August 2007, 09:30 PM   #14
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Doc,

So it says.
I am not sure if the visible teeth and tongue or the wings is what decides the name in case both are there at the same time?

Michael
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Old 22nd August 2007, 06:17 PM   #15
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Default Symbolism of a Garuda-Naga

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Do you know anything about the symbolism/attributes of a Garuda-Naga?

Dear Michael,
As far as I know, motives in keris symbolized the influence of certain culture or cultures from outside Java in their past history. As in Cirebon (Islamic kingdom in West-Central Java, in 15th century). The had their royal chariot, named as "paksi-naga-liman" (garuda/bird-naga-elephant) which was the ornaments of such symbolism. According to the reliable source, paksi-naga-liman symbolized the influence of three external cultures: Egypt (paksi), China (naga), India (liman or elephant). Please see this book "Budaya Bahari: Sebuah Apresiasi di Cirebon" (Maritime Culture: An Appreciation in Cirebon) by Prof Dr Rokhmin Dahuri MS (2001, State Printing of Indonesia).
You may see these three cultures influenced very much Cirebon kingdom, from the architecture of their old palaces (Kanoman and Kasepuhan in Cirebon), and also from their old ornaments, their expression of arts. Cirebon was an Islamic kingdom, but their anchestors were from Segaluh and Pajajaran (Buddha and Hindhu kingdoms in West Java). And their strongest sultan, Sunan Gunung Jati was half Middle east blood, or Egyptian blood. But had Chinese wife, Ong Tin Nio from the Ming dynasty (the tomb of Ong Tin Nio is still existed in Cirebon, in the Gunung Jati cemetery complex).
[QUOTE=VVV
I have also been told that another name of it is a Naga Lar Seluman Kenci (sorry if the description words are in the wrong order as my Indonesian language abilities are mostly used for ordering food?).
Michael[/QUOTE]
Naga = great snake, dragon, symbolism of Chinese influence. Lar = literally means "wing". Seluman or siluman = invisible creature. Kenci? I don't think that this word exist in Indonesian or Javanese language.

I hope this will help you, Mike..

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Old 22nd August 2007, 06:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdavid
According to Karsten's krisdisk

Could that be what we are seeing here or am I being a bit thick. It is not clear in the krisdisk as to which geographical keris region this name applies
cheers
DrD

Dear doctor,
I don't think that "Lar Munda" is the correct spelling nor the correct term. What I know is, dhapur "Manglar Munga" is three luks keris, with ornament in the gandhik or front lower base -- elephant with wings. Some people called this dhapur as "Gajah Manglar" (elephant with wings). Yes, it is a rare dhapur... But Lar Munda is unknown.

"Lar" is a javanese word for "wing". But "munda", I don't think this is a correct word, neither in Indonesian nor Javanese language.

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Old 22nd August 2007, 07:44 PM   #17
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Thanks Ganja for taking your time and explaining the details!
Obviously my source for Kenci/Kentji was wrong as I was told that it meant fang.
I am a bit surprised on Naga as a Chinese influence.
This is originally a Sanskrit word, and an Indian mythological creature.
That's why I thought it was more connected to the Hindu snakedragon than the Chinese dragons also in Indonesia?
But maybe there are several explanations to the same symbol?

Michael
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Old 22nd August 2007, 08:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
I am a bit surprised on Naga as a Chinese influence.
This is originally a Sanskrit word, and an Indian mythological creature.
That's why I thought it was more connected to the Hindu snakedragon than the Chinese dragons also in Indonesia?
But maybe there are several explanations to the same symbol?

I have come to believe that there always is more than one explanation with anything to do with keris.
That being said it has always been my belief and understanding that the naga is indeed of Indian Hindu origin.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 12:01 AM   #19
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The idea of the Naga is widespread in Asia. Yes, origin is Hindu, and from there into Buddhism. It is a Sanscrit word and in Sanscrit it means a being that is in the form of a large snake. There are a number of Nagas, probably most important amongst them is Vasuki or Basuki, who is the essence that binds the earth. In the Gita, Krishna when explaining how he could be everywhere at the same time said that as a serpent he was Vasuki.

To those who are not familiar with Hindu beliefs, it is easily understandable that the Naga can be taken as the dragon and as such as a symbol of China. Cirebon was founded fairly recently, around 1470 or 1480 I think, and as a Muslim state. That the founders of Cirebon took the Naga as a symbol of China is perfectly understandable.

The presence of the Naga image on the keris goes far beyond the simplistic icon of direct relationship. For those with an interest in this I suggest an indepth look at the way in which Hindu beliefs developed in Bali up until the European domination of that island.

In Hindu mythology the Nagas were the enemies of the Garuda.Nagas were subterranean, Garudas flew.Pretty obvious.Possibly of more interest is the fact that the value of winged Naga and a winged elephant is numerologically the same.

The word "naga" itself deserves extended study, as it can be applied in many meanings, depending on the language, place and context.

Regarding the two words "munda" and "kenci".

Is it possible that the word "munda" is in fact "mundhak"--- to become greater? Let us not forget Mr. Jensen's sources; it would be very easy for such a name to arise from these sources, and would be perfectly understandable. In fact, depending on the source involved, it could even be correct, but correct at the time and place of its origin, which is not to say that it would be recognised in present day Jawa.

To somebody unfamiliar with the Javanese language "mundhak" would sound as "munda".

"Kenci" is in fact a legitimate word in Javanese, it is a singkatan ( abbreviation) for "kertu cilik"---"small card", and refers to the small playing cards that are used in dominoes and other card games. However, I sincerely doubt that it has an application in reference to anything at all to do with the keris.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 07:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
The idea of the Naga is widespread in Asia. Yes, origin is Hindu, and from there into Buddhism. It is a Sanscrit word and in Sanscrit it means a being that is in the form of a large snake. There are a number of Nagas, probably most important amongst them is Vasuki or Basuki, who is the essence that binds the earth. In the Gita, Krishna when explaining how he could be everywhere at the same time said that as a serpent he was Vasuki.

To those who are not familiar with Hindu beliefs, it is easily understandable that the Naga can be taken as the dragon and as such as a symbol of China. Cirebon was founded fairly recently, around 1470 or 1480 I think, and as a Muslim state. That the founders of Cirebon took the Naga as a symbol of China is perfectly understandable..

The opinion above is what written in Mr Rokhmin Dahuri's book that I mentioned. But according to "wayang" (javanese traditional puppet leather) story, naga figure known as "Antaboga". (See the picture, Central Java version and West Java version).

Sang Hyang Antaboga, or Sang Hyang Nagasesa or Sang Hyang Basuki is the ruler of the base of the earth. His royal palace called Kahyangan Saptapratala, or 7th layer in the base of the earth. His wife was named as Dewi Supreti, and had two children: Dewi Nagagini and Naga Tatmala. Although the palace in underneath the earth, the story of wayang told us that the situation is almost the same as in the other "kahyangan" above or on the earth...

And the garuda figure, in the wayang story, called as "Jatayu" or "Jetayu". This jumbo bird figure, was dead because of fighting with king of Alengka, Dasamuka who was kidnapping the wife of Rama, Dewi Sinta... (See the picture)

Hope this information is useful for you...

Ganjawulung
Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
To somebody unfamiliar with the Javanese language "mundhak" would sound as "munda".

"Kenci" is in fact a legitimate word in Javanese, it is a singkatan ( abbreviation) for "kertu cilik"---"small card", and refers to the small playing cards that are used in dominoes and other card games. However, I sincerely doubt that it has an application in reference to anything at all to do with the keris.

Yes, "mundhak" is a very very common word in Java. For instance, "mundhak gedhe" means becomes bigger, or "mundhak cilik" means becomes smaller... But, "lar munda"? I am still in my opinion: this is not the correct term for a certain dhapur in keris. "Lar munga" maybe acceptable, for mentioning the "manglar munga" dhapur with figure of naga and garuda...

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Old 23rd August 2007, 08:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Yes, "mundhak" is a very very common word in Java. For instance, "mundhak gedhe" means becomes bigger, or "mundhak cilik" means becomes smaller... But, "lar munda"? I am still in my opinion: this is not the correct term for a certain dhapur in keris. "Lar munga" maybe acceptable, for mentioning the "manglar munga" dhapur with figure of naga and garuda...

Ganjawulung


Sorry, pls correction:
Not figure of naga and garuda, but "elephant with wings". That is "manglar munga" or "lar munga"...

Ganjawulung
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Old 23rd August 2007, 08:55 AM   #22
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Pak Ganja, I apologise for not being sufficiently clear in what I wrote.

My mention of mundhak does not necessarily disallow your hypothesis, but to disallow Jensen's use of the word it would be necessary to go to his source of information and investigate that in terms of time, place and informant.

We need to realise that what we may accept as correct today was not necessarily correct at some time in the past, similarly, something that was current usage at some time in the past, need not necessarily be correct today.

All I have done is produce a possible word that could be part of the answer to Jensen's usage. The way in which it originated could have been distorted or misunderstood by the person who provided the source that Jensen drew upon. When we start to play with possibilities in words transmitted into foreign languages we are really opening a can of worms.

My personal opinion on all these dapur names, pamor names and etc, etc, etc is that they are really not worth a cup full of cold water.Especially when we get into regional variations. Viewed from the historical perspective current names of anything can be misleading as to source.Yes, we need some sort of commonality of terminology in order to communicate, but really, the whole thing can become ridiculous.

Perhaps our time might be better spent in attempting to fathom the meaning of various aspects of the keris, rather than wandering around in wordland--Lullaby of Wordland. And when I speak of meaning, I am not speaking of the current philosophical meanings that are so readily and easily bounced around.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 02:18 PM   #23
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Default Bali handles

This may have been discussed previously, but I am still unable to figure out how anyone would properly grip bali handles such as gerantiman, cenangan or even the simplest bondolan, if keris bali is to be used for combat?
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Old 23rd August 2007, 02:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
This may have been discussed previously, but I am still unable to figure out how anyone would properly grip bali handles such as gerantiman, cenangan or even the simplest bondolan, if keris bali is to be used for combat?

We seem to be getting a little bit off topic here, but yes, this has been discussed before. Please feel free to add to the thread if you have more info or questions:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...=bali+hilt+grip
...and don't be afraid to use the search function on this forum when you wonder such things in the future.
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