Orlov revolt 1770

eftihis · 2nd July 2009, 11:11 PM

Hallo,
I am doing a research about the “Orlov revolt” which took place Greece in 1770, during the Russo-Turkish war. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt
I am interested in uniforms and equipment- weapons of the time.
What was the uniform of Turkish regular forces and what of the Russians? What about their weapons? I have seen numerus publications about turkish weapons of the late 17th century (siege of Viena) and a lot from 1821 onwards, but what about in the mean time (circa 1770?)
In particular regarding swords, what do you think was the analogy of yataghans compared with palas-kilij among turkish forces?

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2009, 09:17 PM

Hi Eftihis,
What an interesting topic! and maybe we can awaken Yannis to see if he could shed some light here as he knows this stuff inside out! While its a bit off the beaten path for me, its an intriguing question and I'll look too as we wait for other replies.
It seems that the Ottomans weaponry, as with many ethnographic types, remained pretty much in use over long periods, and for example, huge stores of arms were warehoused in places such as the armoury in Istanbul.
Good question on use of the yataghan vs. the pala/kilij and I think we need to look into the term pala vs. kilij to reiterate the differences,
Also, based on differences what forces were more likely to use them and find out more on the Janissaries, and thier weaponry. I know Osprey has titles on these and Ottoman forces over extended periods.
"Russian Military swords" by Mollo ( I think it was Eugene who wrote it) is great on swords but wont help much on uniforms (except for sword knots

All the best,
Jim

PS Just found it online
"Armies of the Ottoman Empire 1775-1820" Osprey publications
Man at Arms #314..available at Amazon

Doesnt preclude discussion here I hope, and possibly somebody out there has this title and might share some information to help out here.

eftihis · 8th July 2009, 10:51 PM

Dear Jim,
Thank very much, you are always here with ideas and encouragement for everyone.
Regarding the Osprey publication, it only has local dress and weapons variations from other balkan areas, not Greece and nothing about Crete. Also does not have military uniforms from 1770.
Anyway, below there are photos from a museum of 2 weapons that supposed to be from that time. Can somebody verify that are not made after 1770?
The pistol has a crown mark that flintlock collectors may recognise its date.
The yataghan also has a makers mark, but this is toupher..
Any ideas?

ilias · 11th July 2009, 09:39 AM

I just bump this topic because I believe it is very interesting one.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2009, 05:36 PM

Hi Eftihis,
I just noticed your post, and wanted to thank you for the kind words and for the additional information as well as sharing those beautiful weapons.
The lockplate is of course British, which if I recall, were quite present during the Greek War of Independence.

As noted, the Osprey references are typically quite general in scope, and give a general overview of period and events, while lacking in detail required for in depth study. Magnificent references I would hate to be without, but essentially a 'Cliff Notes' style as a benchmark in study of the topic.

The weapons of Crete are truly an esoteric topic, and I recall years ago, my desperate quest to find a copy of "The Cretan Dagger" which I looked for years to find. Finally it was only through a very good friend in Athens, who helped me acquire the book, one of few copies left. Other references to these weapons are found of course singularly in various works, but not with this kind of detail.

Which brings up the concurrent thread on Robert Elgood's exciting new book, "The Arms of Greece, and her Balkan Neighbors" to be released in November. I have known of this book for many years, as Dr. Elgood has been deeply researching this material, and I very much look forward to seeing the final work.

We'll keep working on this topic, and I do hope others out there will join in. Again, those of you out there reading....please come in!!

All the best,
Jim

2nd July 2009, 11:11 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Orlov revolt 1770 Hallo, I am doing a research about the “Orlov revolt” which took place Greece in 1770, during the Russo-Turkish war. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt I am interested in uniforms and equipment- weapons of the time. What was the uniform of Turkish regular forces and what of the Russians? What about their weapons? I have seen numerus publications about turkish weapons of the late 17th century (siege of Viena) and a lot from 1821 onwards, but what about in the mean time (circa 1770?) In particular regarding swords, what do you think was the analogy of yataghans compared with palas-kilij among turkish forces?

11th July 2009, 09:39 AM	#4
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	just to remind I just bump this topic because I believe it is very interesting one.

3rd July 2009, 09:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	Hi Eftihis, What an interesting topic! and maybe we can awaken Yannis to see if he could shed some light here as he knows this stuff inside out! While its a bit off the beaten path for me, its an intriguing question and I'll look too as we wait for other replies. It seems that the Ottomans weaponry, as with many ethnographic types, remained pretty much in use over long periods, and for example, huge stores of arms were warehoused in places such as the armoury in Istanbul. Good question on use of the yataghan vs. the pala/kilij and I think we need to look into the term pala vs. kilij to reiterate the differences, Also, based on differences what forces were more likely to use them and find out more on the Janissaries, and thier weaponry. I know Osprey has titles on these and Ottoman forces over extended periods. "Russian Military swords" by Mollo ( I think it was Eugene who wrote it) is great on swords but wont help much on uniforms (except for sword knots All the best, Jim PS Just found it online "Armies of the Ottoman Empire 1775-1820" Osprey publications Man at Arms #314..available at Amazon Doesnt preclude discussion here I hope, and possibly somebody out there has this title and might share some information to help out here.

8th July 2009, 10:51 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Are these weapoons from that time? Dear Jim, Thank very much, you are always here with ideas and encouragement for everyone. Regarding the Osprey publication, it only has local dress and weapons variations from other balkan areas, not Greece and nothing about Crete. Also does not have military uniforms from 1770. Anyway, below there are photos from a museum of 2 weapons that supposed to be from that time. Can somebody verify that are not made after 1770? The pistol has a crown mark that flintlock collectors may recognise its date. The yataghan also has a makers mark, but this is toupher.. Any ideas? Attached Images

11th July 2009, 05:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	Hi Eftihis, I just noticed your post, and wanted to thank you for the kind words and for the additional information as well as sharing those beautiful weapons. The lockplate is of course British, which if I recall, were quite present during the Greek War of Independence. As noted, the Osprey references are typically quite general in scope, and give a general overview of period and events, while lacking in detail required for in depth study. Magnificent references I would hate to be without, but essentially a 'Cliff Notes' style as a benchmark in study of the topic. The weapons of Crete are truly an esoteric topic, and I recall years ago, my desperate quest to find a copy of "The Cretan Dagger" which I looked for years to find. Finally it was only through a very good friend in Athens, who helped me acquire the book, one of few copies left. Other references to these weapons are found of course singularly in various works, but not with this kind of detail. Which brings up the concurrent thread on Robert Elgood's exciting new book, "The Arms of Greece, and her Balkan Neighbors" to be released in November. I have known of this book for many years, as Dr. Elgood has been deeply researching this material, and I very much look forward to seeing the final work. We'll keep working on this topic, and I do hope others out there will join in. Again, those of you out there reading....please come in!! All the best, Jim