Early polearm or Lochaber axe or something else ?

broadaxe · 21st November 2019, 07:36 PM

Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

kronckew · 21st November 2019, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

...and your source/reference/examples? many agri-tools were also weapons when required like bill hooks, early swiss halberds/ Scots axes, etc.

Kmaddock · 22nd November 2019, 10:19 AM

when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following
regards
Ken

broadaxe · 22nd November 2019, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following
regards
Ken

Exactly my point: several patterns, abundant in cider regions like Bretagne.

kronckew · 22nd November 2019, 11:39 PM

gets confusing, a well known tale about an incompetent UK executioner who took a few blows with his axe to remove a ladies noggin, he used what was in actuality a carpenters side axe, used to square beams that had an offset blade with a chisel edge and wasn't designed to chop necks. It's designed to shave a vertical surface of a log flat, not chop stuff.

By the way, searching for a carpenter's side axe i found this modern one. Looks familiar.

I seem to recall us discussing army wagon drivers carrying axes for their use which occasionally got pressed into service if they were attacked, turned out they were also carpenters side axes. apparently many are sold as 'battle axes'.

I also note the originally posted one does NOT have the offset of a carpenter's side axe.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2020, 12:15 AM

According to www.tartansauthority.com

I QUOTE" Halbard
The halberd or battle-axe was a Swiss invention which was a combination of spear and axe on a long handle. It was a direct descendant of the old Gallowglass two-handed, 12 inch bladed axe and was particularly effective against horsemen since the foot soldier could cut and thrust with it.

The 1881 Ancient Scottish Weapons had this to say on axes: The Axe is one of the earliest of weapons. The war-axe of iron, in its earlier forms, differed in no respect from the same implement used as a tool. The earliest form of the weapon-tool is a common axe-head longer and narrower in the shank than those now in use. Such axes are depicted as weapons in the Bayeux tapestry. War-axes of a later time were furnished with prolongations in the line of the shaft and hammers or spikes on the hack of the blade. The Jedburgh Staff was a long-handled axe with a curved or crescentic blade, with or without a back-spike. The Lochaber Axe had an elongated blade usually rounded at the upper end, and the staff was furnished with a hook on the end.

The axe and "broggit staff" appeared in 1425 as the equipment of those who were not archers. In the weaponshaws of 1535 halberts appear along with two-handed swords. The Lochaber Axe and the Jeddart Staff appear in 1643 in company with the broadsword. In 1647 it was appointed that seventy-two men in each regiment should carry halbards, and in 1650 Lord Lorne requests a supply of partisans, from the store at Aberdeen, for the equipment of his regiment of Life Guards''.UNQUOTE.

Another quote from the web clears up the names as Jeddart staff and added names below..

The Jeddart staff (also Jedburgh or Jedwart) is a polearm of the 16th and 17th centuries with a glaive-like blade which is fixed to its haft by two sockets, in the manner of a bardiche. Form D in the Caldwell classification.

I might add ...The nomenclature of Scottish axes, in particular, is confusing, and texts sometimes follow the classification scheme proposed by David H. Caldwell in his 1980 paper "Some Notes on Scottish Axes and Long Shafted Weapons".

kronckew · 27th January 2020, 06:43 AM

The Anglo-Saxon two-handed axes on the Bayeux tapestry are generally known as 'Dane axes' and had a haft about 5ft, more or less and a broad pointy blade that was rather thin and light compared to a wood axe. It was optimised for cutting flesh. The Gallowglass also used a 'Sparth' axe, also around the same length.

After Hastings, many surviving English Huscarls, now unemployed, migrated to the eastern Roman empire and served in the Varagian Guard of the Emperor in Constantinople, and were famous for their Axes.

My Dane axe is shown below, with a smaller viking style hand axe. My Sparth axe is shown below. Both are of course modern reproductions only shown to illustrate their appearances.

broadaxe · 22nd November 2019, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...and your source/reference/examples? many agri-tools were also weapons when required like bill hooks, early swiss halberds/ Scots axes, etc.

Sure, well known fact. Sometimes it is pretty hard to tell between, sometimes there is no difference. As a collector and researcher, I also believed this fine example of blacksmithing was forged to be a weapon, but no. Too heavy and ill-balanced.
Years ago, a highly respected auction house even labeled a similar piece as "the ever ellusive French double socketed beheading axe", romantic but false.
Boucard, Daniel, 1998, Les Haches, pp. 210-211

22nd November 2019, 10:19 AM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 533	when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following regards Ken Attached Images

22nd November 2019, 11:39 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	gets confusing, a well known tale about an incompetent UK executioner who took a few blows with his axe to remove a ladies noggin, he used what was in actuality a carpenters side axe, used to square beams that had an offset blade with a chisel edge and wasn't designed to chop necks. It's designed to shave a vertical surface of a log flat, not chop stuff. By the way, searching for a carpenter's side axe i found this modern one. Looks familiar. I seem to recall us discussing army wagon drivers carrying axes for their use which occasionally got pressed into service if they were attacked, turned out they were also carpenters side axes. apparently many are sold as 'battle axes'. I also note the originally posted one does NOT have the offset of a carpenter's side axe. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd November 2019 at 11:54 PM.

27th January 2020, 06:43 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	The Anglo-Saxon two-handed axes on the Bayeux tapestry are generally known as 'Dane axes' and had a haft about 5ft, more or less and a broad pointy blade that was rather thin and light compared to a wood axe. It was optimised for cutting flesh. The Gallowglass also used a 'Sparth' axe, also around the same length. After Hastings, many surviving English Huscarls, now unemployed, migrated to the eastern Roman empire and served in the Varagian Guard of the Emperor in Constantinople, and were famous for their Axes. My Dane axe is shown below, with a smaller viking style hand axe. My Sparth axe is shown below. Both are of course modern reproductions only shown to illustrate their appearances. Attached Images

21st November 2019, 07:36 PM	#1
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

27th January 2020, 12:15 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	According to www.tartansauthority.com I QUOTE" Halbard The halberd or battle-axe was a Swiss invention which was a combination of spear and axe on a long handle. It was a direct descendant of the old Gallowglass two-handed, 12 inch bladed axe and was particularly effective against horsemen since the foot soldier could cut and thrust with it. The 1881 Ancient Scottish Weapons had this to say on axes: The Axe is one of the earliest of weapons. The war-axe of iron, in its earlier forms, differed in no respect from the same implement used as a tool. The earliest form of the weapon-tool is a common axe-head longer and narrower in the shank than those now in use. Such axes are depicted as weapons in the Bayeux tapestry. War-axes of a later time were furnished with prolongations in the line of the shaft and hammers or spikes on the hack of the blade. The Jedburgh Staff was a long-handled axe with a curved or crescentic blade, with or without a back-spike. The Lochaber Axe had an elongated blade usually rounded at the upper end, and the staff was furnished with a hook on the end. The axe and "broggit staff" appeared in 1425 as the equipment of those who were not archers. In the weaponshaws of 1535 halberts appear along with two-handed swords. The Lochaber Axe and the Jeddart Staff appear in 1643 in company with the broadsword. In 1647 it was appointed that seventy-two men in each regiment should carry halbards, and in 1650 Lord Lorne requests a supply of partisans, from the store at Aberdeen, for the equipment of his regiment of Life Guards''.UNQUOTE. Another quote from the web clears up the names as Jeddart staff and added names below.. The Jeddart staff (also Jedburgh or Jedwart) is a polearm of the 16th and 17th centuries with a glaive-like blade which is fixed to its haft by two sockets, in the manner of a bardiche. Form D in the Caldwell classification. I might add ...The nomenclature of Scottish axes, in particular, is confusing, and texts sometimes follow the classification scheme proposed by David H. Caldwell in his 1980 paper "Some Notes on Scottish Axes and Long Shafted Weapons".