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Old 11th July 2020, 04:26 PM   #1
Mel H
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Default Two Shamshir / Killij / Scimitar for comment

One with horn grips and a reasonably heavily curved 78 cm un-fullered blade having a slightly broadened, double edged tip (27 cm).

The other, has Ivory grips and a very wide cross guard (18.5 cm) and a less curved, 84 cm pipe back blade,

Neither have any markings, stamps or engravings.
Knowing that some 19th C. European Officers favoured the Mameluke style, I did at one time wonder if the Horn one may be of European origin.

Any advice with regard to their origins ( and correct terminology) would be welcomed.
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Old 11th July 2020, 06:12 PM   #2
ariel
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I think both of them are European.
As to terminology: both are “ Mameluke swords” for the Europeans, both are “kilij” for the Ottomans, both are “shamshirs” for the Persians or Indo-Persians.
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Old 12th July 2020, 12:03 AM   #3
Oliver Pinchot
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The straighter of the two is Indian work, likely for a British or East India Company officer.
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #4
David R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I think both of them are European.
As to terminology: both are “ Mameluke swords” for the Europeans, both are “kilij” for the Ottomans, both are “shamshirs” for the Persians or Indo-Persians.


I very much agree.
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
The straighter of the two is Indian work, likely for a British or East India Company officer.


I can see why you think that, given the deep "Indian Ricasso", but the pipe back blade is very European. Eastern blades tend to have a T section rather than a keyhole section or ramrod back.
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Old 12th July 2020, 02:10 PM   #6
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Grateful for all of your thoughts, I've had them for quite a while and never quite made up my mind about either of them. I did wonder about the Pipe back but was always thrown by the construction of the grips which I thought was a feature more seen on Eastern hilts.
Thanks, Mel.
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Old 12th July 2020, 02:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
I can see why you think that, given the deep "Indian Ricasso", but the pipe back blade is very European. Eastern blades tend to have a T section rather than a keyhole section or ramrod back.


I've seen many pipeback blades, but never one of this form. If you have, kindly post an image? I think, otherwise, that your observation is a syllogism.

Indian smiths were capable of creating blades based on a sketch or even a description, and regularly conflated European characteristics in their work, particularly for European patrons.
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