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Old 25th July 2017, 02:24 AM   #241
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This image was posted already but I found a much larger one.

Moroccan man wearing a genoui (janwi) dagger and holding a kabyle (moukhala) musket, 1875-1890.

High resolution image https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...19bb5e1b72d.jpg
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Last edited by estcrh : 26th July 2017 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 25th July 2017, 03:37 AM   #242
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I noticed that this photo has not been posted here yet.
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Old 25th July 2017, 04:57 AM   #243
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Bodyguard of the Sultan, Djokjakarta, Java, c1923.
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Old 25th July 2017, 03:39 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
This image was posted already but I found a much larger one.

Moroccan man wearing a genoui (janwi) dagger and holding a kabyle (moukhala) musket, 1875-1890.


Very nice, thanks to the better resolution I finally noticed the beehive flask on his right hip as well.
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Old 25th July 2017, 03:44 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Very nice, thanks to the better resolution I finally noticed the beehive flask on his right hip as well.
Thanks for pointing that out!
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Old 25th July 2017, 03:48 PM   #246
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Afghan Afridi warriors, a good look reveals that two of them are wearing khyber knives, something not often seen.

High resolution image. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...20d30eb920b.jpg
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Last edited by estcrh : 26th July 2017 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 25th July 2017, 05:32 PM   #247
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i see what may be a third man with a 'khyber knife' with the end showing above his belt (i circled it in red) and the ghost of the scabbard tip outlined behind the robes that he wears further down, also circled in red.
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Old 25th July 2017, 07:19 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
i see what may be a third man with a 'khyber knife' with the end showing above his belt (i circled it in red) and the ghost of the scabbard tip outlined behind the robes that he wears further down, also circled in red.

There are a few more partial showings of khyber knives and one pistol.
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Old 25th July 2017, 07:52 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Very nice, thanks to the better resolution I finally noticed the beehive flask on his right hip as well.


and a koummiya
just look above the flask
for me the long dagger is a sboula not a genoui
It's very interesting, because this guy has a koummiya and a sboula.
IMHO the sboula was used as a short sword and the koummiya as a dagger.
More interesting the short sword is also called a nimcha in Morocco/Algeria.
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Old 26th July 2017, 01:11 AM   #250
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Default New images from old ones.

Here is an higher resolution image of one that was previously posted here. It shows two Afghans with jezail muskets. The image was large enough to see the karud dagger that one of them is wearing.

High resolution image https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...86b1b31a15d.png
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Last edited by estcrh : 26th July 2017 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 26th July 2017, 02:19 AM   #251
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Would this particular type of musket be called a Moroccan afedali snaphaunce lock musket? I originally had it as a kabyle (moukhala) musket.
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Old 26th July 2017, 07:22 AM   #252
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Just noticed the ...bipod? in use here.I'm not a collecter of muskets and no little about them but how common were such attachments? I had somehow always thought of them as a modern development for automatic weapons.
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Old 26th July 2017, 09:42 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGuy
Just noticed the ...bipod? in use here.I'm not a collecter of muskets and no little about them but how common were such attachments? I had somehow always thought of them as a modern development for automatic weapons.


I have seen bipods on Tibetan and Afghan long guns and on one Persian example.

The Afghan Joozaeel or Mountain Rifle.
On Stone by J.Bennett. T. Black, Lith Cal. 1840.
Lithograph, rare. Sheet 115 x 205mm, 4 x 8". Narrow margins.
A very unusual illustration of a jezail, with the distinctively curved stock and a bipod. It has been suggested that the jezail was originally designed to be held like a pistol with the stock under the arm, allowing use on horseback. However during the First Anglo-Afghan War (1839-42) it came into its own as a sniper weapon, fired down from high cliffs down onto the British Army retreating from Kabul to Jalalabad. Being heavier and longer-barrelled than the British Brown Bess musket, the Jezail outmatched the return fire. Most were hand-made: only a few were rifled.
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:46 AM   #254
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Indian Kuttuk horseman in armour, 1861?. The Khuttuk clans inhabit a tract of hilly country lying south and south-west of Kohat, and including spurs of the great Sooliman range from Dullun, on the Upper Koorum river, to Kooshalgurh, on the Indus, and from the Bungush valley of Kohat to the Wuzeeree lands in Bunnoo. He is holding a matchlock musket, and wearing a helmet covered in cloth, a tulwar sword, arm guards (dastana) and hauberk (zirah).
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:57 AM   #255
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Kazakh warrior wearing a helmet with mail aventail and mail hauberk, he is holding an axe, a matchlock with bipod and huge composite bow are in the backround. The Kazakh Khanate was a Turkic Kazakh state, the successor of the Golden Horde, existing from 14561847, located roughly on the territory of the present-day Republic of Kazakhstan. At its height the khanate ruled from eastern Cumania (modern-day West Kazakhstan) to most of Uzbekistan, Karakalpakstan and the Syr Darya river.
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Old 27th July 2017, 01:28 AM   #256
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Karbadian warrior, North Caucasus mountains, in armour, wearing a helmet and hauberk, with kindjal dagger and shashka sword, holding a whip in his hand, circa 1890's. Kabardians are the largest Circassian (Adyghe) tribe in Russia (over 600,000), Turkey, Egypt, and some other countries in the region, except for Israel and Jordan, where the Shapsug and Abzakh tribe are the largest tribes, respectively. The Kabardian tribe are also the largest Circassian branch in the world in general.
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Old 27th July 2017, 03:17 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Would this particular type of musket be called a Moroccan afedali snaphaunce lock musket? I originally had it as a kabyle (moukhala) musket.

Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
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Old 27th July 2017, 07:30 AM   #258
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estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe? found the framed image that shows a similar axe with a similar anomaly. anyone have a similar axe or photo of one?
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Old 27th July 2017, 07:47 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
Stu

Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.
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Old 27th July 2017, 08:02 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe?
I also noticed it. I think it is a knife, there appears to be an attachment point near the middle. I also see some sort of suspension strap, which makes sense since you could not wrap your hand around the upper part of the shaft due to the knife blade being mounted there.

Take a look at how long this axe is. I found one image of some axes supposedly from the same region.

Axes, photo from the expedition. Dudina, North-East Kazakhstan, 1899.
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Last edited by estcrh : 27th July 2017 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 27th July 2017, 08:07 AM   #261
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i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?

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Old 27th July 2017, 10:16 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?




I have never seen another axe like it. I guess we are very lucky to have this one photograph even. Here is a link to a Khazak museum with some info and a few images that are to small to post here. http://old.unesco.kz/heritagenet/kz...l/voorug_en.htm

Also a reproduction Khazak armor made for a Khazak museum, and a copy of the illustration you posted which has a very Persian look to it.


Kazakh batyr in mirror armour, 17th-18th century.
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Old 27th July 2017, 10:40 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.


Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...
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Old 27th July 2017, 12:10 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...



The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.
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Old 27th July 2017, 11:23 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.

Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
Stu
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Old 28th July 2017, 12:15 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
Stu
Stu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.
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Old 28th July 2017, 12:38 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Stu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.

Despite the different names shown above, the broad band "system" looks to me no different over the various types. The purpose would be the same.....to give strength to the barrel attachment to the stock. I have a Mukahla from the Taroudant Region, and it also has that wide band, though on mine it is copper/brass and not iron.
As an aside the Algerian guns shown, I would call Kabyle and not Mukahla.
Pics of my 2 guns attached.....Mukahla and Kabyle.
Stu
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Old 28th July 2017, 01:26 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Despite the different names shown above, the broad band "system" looks to me no different over the various types. The purpose would be the same.....to give strength to the barrel attachment to the stock. I have a Mukahla from the Taroudant Region, and it also has that wide band, though on mine it is copper/brass and not iron.
As an aside the Algerian guns shown, I would call Kabyle and not Mukahla.
Pics of my 2 guns attached.....Mukahla and Kabyle.
Stu


Nice examples, they seem to fit the descriptions of the website.....maybe these similar types from the same region are all "mukahla / moukhala"?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 08:34 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
I have seen bipods on Tibetan and Afghan long guns and on one Persian example.


Bipods or rifle stands are very common in Northern India.
My feeling is that is a Far-Eastern influence, probably from China.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 08:35 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Nice examples, they seem to fit the descriptions of the website.....maybe these similar types from the same region are all "mukahla / moukhala"?


Yes mukhala is a generic French colonial term.
They are all moukhala.
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