'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades - Page 2

urbanspaceman · 24th November 2023, 11:18 AM

Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge:
"James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."

History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.

You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect.

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Radboud · 24th November 2023, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Thomas Gill's father was a maker of fine tools and files, Thomas continued that business before branching out to sword making. He was also quite an innovator so there is a fair chance he was partially self-taught since he would have an excellent understanding of the base metal working skills.

Hotspur · 29th November 2023, 05:03 PM

I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own).

A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house?

There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us?

I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work.

The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work

Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly)

Cheers
GC

Hanger1 · 1st December 2023, 08:17 PM

Hello, I am a new member and also posted this one sword with another in my recent, original thread to ask for help. However the one blade fits well with this discussion and the request for other marked blades, potentially Solingen. This sword has a mystery hilt on it, and then has the blade with the etchings/engravings.

I have struck out with my other posted thread thus far, so maybe more people will see it again here. Thanks all.

24th November 2023, 11:18 AM	#31
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 501	Runkel Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers: Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge: "James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley." History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money. You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect. In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

29th November 2023, 05:03 PM	#33
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 489	I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own). A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house? There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us? I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work. The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly) Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 29th November 2023 at 11:41 PM.

1st December 2023, 08:17 PM	#34
Hanger1 Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Trophy Club, Texas Posts: 7	My petit Montmorency with blade markings Hello, I am a new member and also posted this one sword with another in my recent, original thread to ask for help. However the one blade fits well with this discussion and the request for other marked blades, potentially Solingen. This sword has a mystery hilt on it, and then has the blade with the etchings/engravings. I have struck out with my other posted thread thus far, so maybe more people will see it again here. Thanks all. Attached Images