Is this tourist work?

Tim Simmons · 18th December 2004, 11:21 AM

[IMG]http://[/IMG] I got this at a charity market because it was only a few pounds.The spear type blade looks older than the rest of it,which are not new.The scabbard is dressed in a slice of horn ? glued and pinned with a wooden peg .Might it be a so called {lading terus}?Any comments Please.Tim

Henk · 18th December 2004, 03:21 PM

Tim,

It is a bit hard to say but my first opininion is not to call it tourist work. It is a tombak and sometimes they are mounted in a keris dress. I've seen one lately and the scabbard was made to fit the tombak. I suppose in your case it is the same. The ukiran is made in a figure and seems to fit well.
Some close ups from the scabbard and the way the tombak fits in it can tell more. My first opinion is a nice tombak in a keris dress specially made for this tombak.
The horn, is it turtle?

VANDOO · 18th December 2004, 05:08 PM

I WOULD AGREE THAT IT IS NOT TOURIST WORK, THE FITTINGS APPEAR TO HAVE SOME AGE AND ARE WELL DONE AND THE HORN OR SEA TURTLE SHELL ALSO LEADS ME TO THAT CONCLUSION.
WE HAVE DISCUSSED TOMBAK'S BEFORE BUT I WILL ADD A LITTLE CONJECTURE

,THAT I DON'T THINK WAS COVERED. TOMBAKS WERE SPEAR BLADES AND WERE PROBABLY PASSED DOWN THRU THE FAMILY AS OTHER WEAPONS WERE. AT SOME POINT CARRYING A SPEAR AROUND BECAME SOCIALY UNACCEPTABLE OR PERHAPS YOU WERE LOOKED DOWN ON AS BEING PRIMATIVE AND FROM THE COUNTRY. AT THIS POINT SOME OF THE HEIRLOOM BLADES WERE REMOUNTED AS TOMBAK SO THEY COULD STILL BE CARRIED AND HONERED AS FAMILY HEIRLOOMS. SO IN MOST CASES THE BLADES WILL ALWAYS BE OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS. OTHER SPEARS WERE NEVER ALTERED AND KEPT AROUND THE HOUSE OR STORED SOMEWHERE.

Tim Simmons · 18th December 2004, 05:21 PM

Well I say, I only bought this because the money was going to charity.I do not know if it is horn or shell or where it may come from.Here are some more pics.I do believe in father christmass after all.Many thanks to you all Tim

Rick · 18th December 2004, 06:50 PM

An early purchase that Paul must surely remember .

The blade needs staining to say the least .
The blade may be old .

Tim Simmons · 18th December 2004, 07:54 PM

Thank you Rick,I think you have drawn a line under this question.Quite a difference in all aspects.Tourst art can keep skills alive but as all collectors know something is missing.Thank you all ,you have made my weekend.Tim

BluErf · 19th December 2004, 02:46 AM

I guess for 'tourist pieces', the original intent and purpose is missing when the artisans/smiths make them. Sometimes, that makes all the difference, even if the technical skills and care of manufacture remains at the same level (which usually doesn't happen, as we all know. Skills and care go out of the window); Somehow, the end-result is not the same.

Henk · 19th December 2004, 08:51 AM

Tim,

Vandoo made a good adding.

Thanks for posting some more pictures. This scabbard was made for the blade. I think it is turtleshell and for a tourist piece they wouldn't give much effort to make such a piece.

Take a look at Rick's one, that's something different.

BluErf however makes a point. A tombak mounted as a dagger has a completely other look. But the tombak I've seen lately mounted in keris dress was a very old one. A real antique dress with the scabbard mouth made in the same way like yours.
So like Vandoo mentioned with a spear I'm a countryboy. Mounted like a dagger is less, so give it a keris dress.

Tim Simmons · 19th December 2004, 09:05 AM

Good morning Henk,I cannot see it you will have to spell it out.Thanks Tim.

Henk · 19th December 2004, 09:36 AM

Good morning to you too Tim.

To spell it out is very difficult. I suppose you mean to spell out the differences between your piece and Rick's one.

The blade of Rick's tombak might be an old one as well. But when you look to the dress you can see what BluErf said. It is done roughly. Look at that grip. It is carved in a hurry. It is not smooth and delicate like we use to see on oriental art. The scabbard too. The painting is too gold. and it is done very careless. Did you ever see a polychrome painted keris or golok, and I mean a real one? Then you would say I see what you mean. If you take a look at the pictures on the forum and compare them you will probably get an idea what we mean with tourist stuff and a good piece. But the best way to find out is, and it is said so many times, so it is not new, to hold pieces in your hand. If you really want to find out you should come to the "Pasar Malam Besar" in Den Haag, for the English The Hague, in june I believe. An excellent place to see differences. Real old antique pieces and the tourist stuff in one large oriental market. This Pasar Malam takes a whole week.

18th December 2004, 11:21 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Is this tourist work? [IMG]http://[/IMG] I got this at a charity market because it was only a few pounds.The spear type blade looks older than the rest of it,which are not new.The scabbard is dressed in a slice of horn ? glued and pinned with a wooden peg .Might it be a so called {lading terus}?Any comments Please.Tim Attached Images

18th December 2004, 05:21 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Well I say, I only bought this because the money was going to charity.I do not know if it is horn or shell or where it may come from.Here are some more pics.I do believe in father christmass after all.Many thanks to you all Tim Attached Images

18th December 2004, 06:50 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	This Probably Is ... Tourist An early purchase that Paul must surely remember . The blade needs staining to say the least . The blade may be old . Attached Images

18th December 2004, 03:21 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, It is a bit hard to say but my first opininion is not to call it tourist work. It is a tombak and sometimes they are mounted in a keris dress. I've seen one lately and the scabbard was made to fit the tombak. I suppose in your case it is the same. The ukiran is made in a figure and seems to fit well. Some close ups from the scabbard and the way the tombak fits in it can tell more. My first opinion is a nice tombak in a keris dress specially made for this tombak. The horn, is it turtle?

18th December 2004, 05:08 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD AGREE THAT IT IS NOT TOURIST WORK, THE FITTINGS APPEAR TO HAVE SOME AGE AND ARE WELL DONE AND THE HORN OR SEA TURTLE SHELL ALSO LEADS ME TO THAT CONCLUSION. WE HAVE DISCUSSED TOMBAK'S BEFORE BUT I WILL ADD A LITTLE CONJECTURE ,THAT I DON'T THINK WAS COVERED. TOMBAKS WERE SPEAR BLADES AND WERE PROBABLY PASSED DOWN THRU THE FAMILY AS OTHER WEAPONS WERE. AT SOME POINT CARRYING A SPEAR AROUND BECAME SOCIALY UNACCEPTABLE OR PERHAPS YOU WERE LOOKED DOWN ON AS BEING PRIMATIVE AND FROM THE COUNTRY. AT THIS POINT SOME OF THE HEIRLOOM BLADES WERE REMOUNTED AS TOMBAK SO THEY COULD STILL BE CARRIED AND HONERED AS FAMILY HEIRLOOMS. SO IN MOST CASES THE BLADES WILL ALWAYS BE OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS. OTHER SPEARS WERE NEVER ALTERED AND KEPT AROUND THE HOUSE OR STORED SOMEWHERE.

18th December 2004, 07:54 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thank you Rick,I think you have drawn a line under this question.Quite a difference in all aspects.Tourst art can keep skills alive but as all collectors know something is missing.Thank you all ,you have made my weekend.Tim

19th December 2004, 02:46 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I guess for 'tourist pieces', the original intent and purpose is missing when the artisans/smiths make them. Sometimes, that makes all the difference, even if the technical skills and care of manufacture remains at the same level (which usually doesn't happen, as we all know. Skills and care go out of the window); Somehow, the end-result is not the same.

19th December 2004, 08:51 AM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Vandoo made a good adding. Thanks for posting some more pictures. This scabbard was made for the blade. I think it is turtleshell and for a tourist piece they wouldn't give much effort to make such a piece. Take a look at Rick's one, that's something different. BluErf however makes a point. A tombak mounted as a dagger has a completely other look. But the tombak I've seen lately mounted in keris dress was a very old one. A real antique dress with the scabbard mouth made in the same way like yours. So like Vandoo mentioned with a spear I'm a countryboy. Mounted like a dagger is less, so give it a keris dress.

19th December 2004, 09:05 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Good morning Henk,I cannot see it you will have to spell it out.Thanks Tim.

19th December 2004, 09:36 AM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Good morning to you too Tim. To spell it out is very difficult. I suppose you mean to spell out the differences between your piece and Rick's one. The blade of Rick's tombak might be an old one as well. But when you look to the dress you can see what BluErf said. It is done roughly. Look at that grip. It is carved in a hurry. It is not smooth and delicate like we use to see on oriental art. The scabbard too. The painting is too gold. and it is done very careless. Did you ever see a polychrome painted keris or golok, and I mean a real one? Then you would say I see what you mean. If you take a look at the pictures on the forum and compare them you will probably get an idea what we mean with tourist stuff and a good piece. But the best way to find out is, and it is said so many times, so it is not new, to hold pieces in your hand. If you really want to find out you should come to the "Pasar Malam Besar" in Den Haag, for the English The Hague, in june I believe. An excellent place to see differences. Real old antique pieces and the tourist stuff in one large oriental market. This Pasar Malam takes a whole week.