European and Military Swords

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2008, 02:50 AM

The new forum is runnin' 'great guns' !!!! Its great to see so much discussion on the great firearms of history, especially those of such antiquity that have been shared here. As I have noted, I know that my knowledge of antique and historical firearms can best be classified as a cursory working knowledge

so its great to see these posted and outstanding historic detail added.

The scope of the forum not only includes these as well as the esoterica of armour and range of all weapons, but the area that seems lacking so far are the classic European edged weapons, including military and civilian forms.

I know you guys out there have some outstanding examples, and I'd like to see them posted and discussed here in hopes we can put together some informational threads. I'd really like to see some of the well known forms brought in, for example...the SCHIAVONA.

These beautiful basket hilt swords have some fascinating and colorful history, and it would be great to examples posted and talk about the history and development of the form. I know these have been well discussed elsewhere, but bringing in the historic data with actual examples really adds dimension.
I'd like to see examples marked with the Council of Ten, and learn more on that often secretive organization.

C'mon guys.....lets add some swords to the fantastic spectrum of arms and armour being brought in here.

All the best,
Jim

chevalier · 20th September 2008, 05:03 AM

ive been thinking of obtaining a del tin schiavona since the originals run in the 10's of thousands and are for all intents and purposes out of my reach at this point.

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2008, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

ive been thinking of obtaining a del tin schiavona since the originals run in the 10's of thousands and are for all intents and purposes out of my reach at this point.

Actually original schiavona's are not unbelievably rare, nor do they command those kinds of prices, at least in what I've seen over the years. While the reproduction examples are nicely done, and good representations, what we hope to accomplish here is studying and identifying the original swords.
As we have seen, there are many extremely rare and original early firearms in private collections, and I am hoping that original early swords are also available to be shared and discussed here.

Valjhun · 11th November 2008, 07:33 AM

Schiavonas are getting very difficult to buy. Here is my example I've bought recently... Not so sound and decorated as it should be, but still a piece of history...

fernando · 11th November 2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

... Not so sound and decorated as it should be, but still a piece of history...

Never mind that, Valjhun ... it's a beatiful warrior; that's what matters

.
It's got a mark and everything; what else can one hope for ?

Fernando

celtan · 11th November 2008, 03:47 PM

Since we are not quoting values for any particular sword. What are the average street prices for an original schiavonna? I have alway wanted to get one of these bat-head pommeled beauties.

I'd just like to know what to expect...

Regards

Manuel

st

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Never mind that, Valjhun ... it's a beatiful warrior; that's what matters

.
It's got a mark and everything; what else can one hope for ?

Fernando

fernando · 11th November 2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Since we are not quoting values for any particular sword. What are the average street prices for an original schiavonna? I have alway wanted to get one of these bat-head pommeled beauties.
I'd just like to know what to expect...
Regards
Manuel
st

I wouln't know ... haven't even tried to know

Maybe Valjhun culd send us a PM, giving us an idea of what his example costed ?
Fernando

kisak · 11th November 2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Since we are not quoting values for any particular sword. What are the average street prices for an original schiavonna? I have alway wanted to get one of these bat-head pommeled beauties.

There's been a pair of them popping up at auctions here in Stockholm the last year.

Sold for 17000SEK, about 1700€
http://www.probusauktioner.se/auktio...ovember%202008

And this one went for 9500SEK, about 950€.
http://www.auktionsverket.se/dbkatal...r=5468&ma=R712

Valjhun · 11th November 2008, 08:10 PM

WOW!!! These went very very cheap,,,,

fernando · 11th November 2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

WOW!!! These went very very cheap,,,,

You can say so

.

Valjhun · 12th November 2008, 12:39 AM

ehmm... mine costed twice as much...

probably the worst investment in a sword I ever made

Jim McDougall · 12th November 2008, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Never mind that, Valjhun ... it's a beatiful warrior; that's what matters

.
It's got a mark and everything; what else can one hope for ?

Fernando

Well said Fernando!!! A beautiful warrior it is, and these are truly hard to find....real ones that is, like this one.
Valjhun, a sword such as this is never an investment, but a piece of history, and deserving being preserved. I always felt like I had 'saved' a worthy old warrior from the dealers with grinding wheels and steel wool, and couldn't wait to hear the stories it would tell me .
This is a good sound example of a true schiavona, probably mid to late 18th century. Wish I could make out the marking, but it seems unusual that it is on the guard, and I think that might be key to some identification.

Thank you for posting it this great example.

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 12th November 2008, 04:01 AM

Thank you Jim for your kind words...

Actually I think it was made between 1580-1600, relatively early example of a schiavona, from the venetian arsenal, official type. I figured it out from books like "ubojite ojstrice". There is precisely one like thatone (but in much better condition) in the dodge palace museum in Venice, marked as the oldest in the collection (they have 6 of them)

Theese markings (pommel and guard), wich are hardly visible, are the markings of the venetian arsenal - I can't figure them out, but seems to represent san Marco or the venetian lion.

I'm posting photos of the markings from the sword wich is at the dodges' museum (palazzo ducale). Theese markings are also located on the guard and pommel.

The blade has a genova(?) type mark.... Any comments on that, Jim?

18th century schiavonas tend to have a different type of basket, representing more a kind of net, wich is more complex and more baroquese... Posting an example...

I'm rather happy with it as a piece of history, an old true warrior, like you said, but I'm still trying to find a later one with artistically more complex guard, like the last photo... btw, sold for 8.500 euro at the san girogio auction house...

Valjhun · 12th November 2008, 04:26 AM

scans from venetian coins:

San Marco

or

Winged Lion

What do you think?

Jim McDougall · 12th November 2008, 04:53 AM

Hi Valjhun,
Thank you for the additional photos, and I'm very interested in the reference you note "Ubojite Ojstrice". This is one I'm unaware of, can you specify more. There are mostly very unspecific references made to schiavona in most western works in English, and I have not seen illustrations of the examples in the Doges Palace. What would be most interesting would be those said to belong to the 'Council of Ten' (Consiglio dei Deici), which are inventoried as items G289-587. These supposedly have pommels marked with CX, for that council which existed from 1310-1797.

It is unclear exactly when these swords appeared, particularly in the distinctive trellised or basket type hilts that are now well known as schiavona, however a 1548 inventory reference to a 'spade schiavonesche' is noted. With trade between Dalmatia and Venice pronounced in those times, many of the Croatians lived in the Castello district. Their presence as soldiers in the Doges forces was well known, especially in the ranks of his bodyguards with whom the schiavona itself is most associated.

It seems that most examples of the most commonly found forms are considered of 17th and 18th century, and there seems a great deal of speculation and debate on the development of these varied hilts. Oakeshott has classified them in some degree, and the simpler guard with fewer but soundly connected bars is in category type 1. Others are with more complex trellis baskets (gitterkorb), but since chronological periods are not denoted it would seem that many were contemporary to each other.

I have seen notes that the brass hilts do seem to be prevalent on the earlier examples, and that examples of c.1781 often bear the ownership mark of the Venetian Republic, which I am presuming is possibly in the cartouche on the hilt of your sword. This would probably be the winged lion of St. Mark, which is the symbol of Venice (interestingly in heraldic terms its position is emblematic for council).

I am inclined to think tentatively that your sword is likely 18th century, and seems in pretty good shape, but with good signs of age in the right places. The 'genoan' mark is actually only associated with that center and widely copied not only by other blade making centers in Italy, but of course in Germany, and others. Without further research thats all I can say at this point on it.

Again, this is a remarkably fine example of these increasingly rare swords, and as I have noted, I am inclined to prefer the simple fighting examples, especially intact and reflecting sound age patination.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th November 2008, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

scans from venetian coins:

San Marco

or

Winged Lion

What do you think?

we crossed posts Valjhun,
thats it! I think thats the mark on your sword cartouche.
It really is amazing how much can be discovered in the markings on coins when examining markings on weapons. We have discussed this a number of times, and I can think of instances when I have used coins to compare cyphers, crowns and even armoury markings (on one Afghan sword).
Nicely done, and thank you for posting that !!!

All the best,
Jim

Dmitry · 18th July 2010, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Schiavonas are getting very difficult to buy. Here is my example I've bought recently... Not so sound and decorated as it should be, but still a piece of history...

I recognize my photos. I sold this sword, but I don't know whether it was you who bought it from me, or it was re-sold after...

Dmitry · 19th July 2010, 01:50 AM

Here's my schiavona. Note the 'cockroach' or 'ant' marks on the blade, which were discussed in another thread. After browsing my [scant] sources on the subject, I would tentatively date this one to some time in the 1600s.
It was acquired by me together with the one that Valjhun is now so proud to own.
While they were in use up to the end of the 18th c., Valjhun's and mine appear a bit earlier.
The later hilts show more rows of "windows" in the lattice baskets, although dating them based on this characteristic alone may be false.
The last two photos are from Robert Elgood's THE ARMS OF GREECE AND HER BALKAN NEIGHBORS IN THE OTTOMAN PERIOD, and show two schiavonas from the late 1700s. Note more rows of 'windows' on the guard.

Dmitry · 19th July 2010, 01:52 AM

*

20th September 2008, 02:50 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Schiavona The new forum is runnin' 'great guns' !!!! Its great to see so much discussion on the great firearms of history, especially those of such antiquity that have been shared here. As I have noted, I know that my knowledge of antique and historical firearms can best be classified as a cursory working knowledge so its great to see these posted and outstanding historic detail added. The scope of the forum not only includes these as well as the esoterica of armour and range of all weapons, but the area that seems lacking so far are the classic European edged weapons, including military and civilian forms. I know you guys out there have some outstanding examples, and I'd like to see them posted and discussed here in hopes we can put together some informational threads. I'd really like to see some of the well known forms brought in, for example...the SCHIAVONA. These beautiful basket hilt swords have some fascinating and colorful history, and it would be great to examples posted and talk about the history and development of the form. I know these have been well discussed elsewhere, but bringing in the historic data with actual examples really adds dimension. I'd like to see examples marked with the Council of Ten, and learn more on that often secretive organization. C'mon guys.....lets add some swords to the fantastic spectrum of arms and armour being brought in here. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th November 2008 at 03:30 AM. Reason: Focus title on schiavona

11th November 2008, 07:33 AM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Schiavonas are getting very difficult to buy. Here is my example I've bought recently... Not so sound and decorated as it should be, but still a piece of history... Attached Images

12th November 2008, 04:01 AM	#13
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you Jim for your kind words... Actually I think it was made between 1580-1600, relatively early example of a schiavona, from the venetian arsenal, official type. I figured it out from books like "ubojite ojstrice". There is precisely one like thatone (but in much better condition) in the dodge palace museum in Venice, marked as the oldest in the collection (they have 6 of them) Theese markings (pommel and guard), wich are hardly visible, are the markings of the venetian arsenal - I can't figure them out, but seems to represent san Marco or the venetian lion. I'm posting photos of the markings from the sword wich is at the dodges' museum (palazzo ducale). Theese markings are also located on the guard and pommel. The blade has a genova(?) type mark.... Any comments on that, Jim? 18th century schiavonas tend to have a different type of basket, representing more a kind of net, wich is more complex and more baroquese... Posting an example... I'm rather happy with it as a piece of history, an old true warrior, like you said, but I'm still trying to find a later one with artistically more complex guard, like the last photo... btw, sold for 8.500 euro at the san girogio auction house... Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 12th November 2008 at 04:30 AM.

12th November 2008, 04:26 AM	#14
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	scans from venetian coins: San Marco or Winged Lion What do you think? Attached Images

19th July 2010, 01:50 AM	#18
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's my schiavona. Note the 'cockroach' or 'ant' marks on the blade, which were discussed in another thread. After browsing my [scant] sources on the subject, I would tentatively date this one to some time in the 1600s. It was acquired by me together with the one that Valjhun is now so proud to own. While they were in use up to the end of the 18th c., Valjhun's and mine appear a bit earlier. The later hilts show more rows of "windows" in the lattice baskets, although dating them based on this characteristic alone may be false. The last two photos are from Robert Elgood's THE ARMS OF GREECE AND HER BALKAN NEIGHBORS IN THE OTTOMAN PERIOD, and show two schiavonas from the late 1700s. Note more rows of 'windows' on the guard. Attached Images

20th September 2008, 05:03 AM	#2
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	ive been thinking of obtaining a del tin schiavona since the originals run in the 10's of thousands and are for all intents and purposes out of my reach at this point.

11th November 2008, 08:10 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	WOW!!! These went very very cheap,,,,

12th November 2008, 12:39 AM	#11
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	ehmm... mine costed twice as much... probably the worst investment in a sword I ever made

12th November 2008, 04:53 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Valjhun, Thank you for the additional photos, and I'm very interested in the reference you note "Ubojite Ojstrice". This is one I'm unaware of, can you specify more. There are mostly very unspecific references made to schiavona in most western works in English, and I have not seen illustrations of the examples in the Doges Palace. What would be most interesting would be those said to belong to the 'Council of Ten' (Consiglio dei Deici), which are inventoried as items G289-587. These supposedly have pommels marked with CX, for that council which existed from 1310-1797. It is unclear exactly when these swords appeared, particularly in the distinctive trellised or basket type hilts that are now well known as schiavona, however a 1548 inventory reference to a 'spade schiavonesche' is noted. With trade between Dalmatia and Venice pronounced in those times, many of the Croatians lived in the Castello district. Their presence as soldiers in the Doges forces was well known, especially in the ranks of his bodyguards with whom the schiavona itself is most associated. It seems that most examples of the most commonly found forms are considered of 17th and 18th century, and there seems a great deal of speculation and debate on the development of these varied hilts. Oakeshott has classified them in some degree, and the simpler guard with fewer but soundly connected bars is in category type 1. Others are with more complex trellis baskets (gitterkorb), but since chronological periods are not denoted it would seem that many were contemporary to each other. I have seen notes that the brass hilts do seem to be prevalent on the earlier examples, and that examples of c.1781 often bear the ownership mark of the Venetian Republic, which I am presuming is possibly in the cartouche on the hilt of your sword. This would probably be the winged lion of St. Mark, which is the symbol of Venice (interestingly in heraldic terms its position is emblematic for council). I am inclined to think tentatively that your sword is likely 18th century, and seems in pretty good shape, but with good signs of age in the right places. The 'genoan' mark is actually only associated with that center and widely copied not only by other blade making centers in Italy, but of course in Germany, and others. Without further research thats all I can say at this point on it. Again, this is a remarkably fine example of these increasingly rare swords, and as I have noted, I am inclined to prefer the simple fighting examples, especially intact and reflecting sound age patination. All best regards, Jim

19th July 2010, 01:52 AM	#19
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	* Attached Images