More evidence of Indian weaponry 'influences' in 19th C Sudan

katana · 28th May 2010, 01:21 PM

Hi

.
whilst browsing online I discovered an article refering to the weapons of the Sudan. I have long advocated the idea that a number of the Mahdist weapons could have been directly influenced by Indian. The Haldie is one. Jim had mentioned before that Indian military forces had been deployed in the region ....but the haldie would not have been used by them.

A number of possible Sudanese/Indian weapons have been posted here in the past.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sudan
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara

In the article, I found, it stated that .....

"......Apart from weapons from Europe and North Africa, traded across the Sahara, weapons entered the country from battles with the Egyptians, Abyssinian s and expeditions to secure the Ugandan, Congo and Nile tribes. Trophies taken at the battle of Tofrek in 1885, included arms from India - a tulwar sword with dual point and serrated cutting edge and an all steel circular shield (dhal)......."

Sudanese Weapons of the late 19th Century Written by Ralph Moore-Morris of the Victorian Military Society.

http://www.victorianmilitarysociety....icles&Itemid=9

Yet, another Indian sword ...a representation of the Sacred Sword Zulfikar..but one we usually consider a ceremonial weapon (Islamic ? )....so again, a weapon unlikely to be used/carried by any of the Indian Forces deployed in the Sudan.

Comments, as usual, are gratefully received

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2010, 01:43 PM

Absolutely fantastic David! You are 'the man'!!!!

These are perfect observations and references to the seemingly neverending 'mysteries' of the Sudanese weapons, which have indeed been discussed many times through the years. Beyond the mention that there were in some degree, forces from India deployed in these regions by the British Raj, I believe that there was a significant influence of Indian weaponry brought in via the Red Sea trade. Naturally, many of these weapons were from the Arab trade from the western ports of India.

The unusual twin bladed knife, the haladie, as you know was noted in Stone as also being termed 'the Syrian knife'. We have established that Mamluk influence from Egyptian regions into Sudan was largely the source of not only the kaskara, but various other weapons as well. Since Syria and Egypt were long connected via the Mamluks, the plausible connection can be seen. Also worthy of note, the Rajput connection, and the madu madu, the weapon of buffalo horns which served to influence these.

In the past weeks I have encountered a number of weapons that show distinct parity with elements seen in the weapons of India, and I heartily agree on the cross cultural influences you describe between Indian regions and those of Sudan as well as contiguous trade regions.

All the best,
Jim

28th May 2010, 01:21 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	More evidence of Indian weaponry 'influences' in 19th C Sudan Hi . whilst browsing online I discovered an article refering to the weapons of the Sudan. I have long advocated the idea that a number of the Mahdist weapons could have been directly influenced by Indian. The Haldie is one. Jim had mentioned before that Indian military forces had been deployed in the region ....but the haldie would not have been used by them. A number of possible Sudanese/Indian weapons have been posted here in the past. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=sudan http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara In the article, I found, it stated that ..... "......Apart from weapons from Europe and North Africa, traded across the Sahara, weapons entered the country from battles with the Egyptians, Abyssinian s and expeditions to secure the Ugandan, Congo and Nile tribes. Trophies taken at the battle of Tofrek in 1885, included arms from India - a tulwar sword with dual point and serrated cutting edge and an all steel circular shield (dhal)......." Sudanese Weapons of the late 19th Century Written by Ralph Moore-Morris of the Victorian Military Society. http://www.victorianmilitarysociety....icles&Itemid=9 Yet, another Indian sword ...a representation of the Sacred Sword Zulfikar..but one we usually consider a ceremonial weapon (Islamic ? )....so again, a weapon unlikely to be used/carried by any of the Indian Forces deployed in the Sudan. Comments, as usual, are gratefully received Kind Regards David

28th May 2010, 01:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Absolutely fantastic David! You are 'the man'!!!! These are perfect observations and references to the seemingly neverending 'mysteries' of the Sudanese weapons, which have indeed been discussed many times through the years. Beyond the mention that there were in some degree, forces from India deployed in these regions by the British Raj, I believe that there was a significant influence of Indian weaponry brought in via the Red Sea trade. Naturally, many of these weapons were from the Arab trade from the western ports of India. The unusual twin bladed knife, the haladie, as you know was noted in Stone as also being termed 'the Syrian knife'. We have established that Mamluk influence from Egyptian regions into Sudan was largely the source of not only the kaskara, but various other weapons as well. Since Syria and Egypt were long connected via the Mamluks, the plausible connection can be seen. Also worthy of note, the Rajput connection, and the madu madu, the weapon of buffalo horns which served to influence these. In the past weeks I have encountered a number of weapons that show distinct parity with elements seen in the weapons of India, and I heartily agree on the cross cultural influences you describe between Indian regions and those of Sudan as well as contiguous trade regions. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th May 2010 at 10:47 PM.