otoman sword for id

weapons 27 · 30th October 2012, 11:57 AM

can you give me the origin of this sword, I think Hungarian?

It is 98 cm long, the blade 86 cm

thanks

weapons 27 · 30th October 2012, 12:03 PM

the front frame is not part of this sabre

broadaxe · 31st October 2012, 09:37 AM

Very interesting. The form is Syrian/Badawi but the work is not typical and intriguing. I have a Badawi saber with an old blade refurbished in contemporary improvised fittings, with a similar green velvet sheath, but the work is plain, not to say crude.

A.alnakkas · 31st October 2012, 12:54 PM

Yep, this is an interesting piece. It does look like the Syrian saif but there is something off (very) with it.. I dont know, it could be as Broadaxe says?

Things does get rehilted often in Syria and KSA.. so its all possible.

weapons 27 · 31st October 2012, 02:00 PM

the person who sold it to me told me that it would be Hungarian !!!!

A.alnakkas · 31st October 2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weapons 27

the person who sold it to me told me that it would be Hungarian !!!!

Well its possible. I am not knowledgable with East European arms but I always thought Hungarians had swords similar to Ottoman and sometimes Syrian stuff?

broadaxe · 31st October 2012, 02:30 PM

I'm holding the best source about Hungarian swords, Kardok by Lugosi & Temesvary, besides I'd visited several collections in Hungary. While the design looks very closely to Syrian, this could be late court sword for lower rank nobility. Both Hungary and Poland adopted turkish-style sabers, often fitted with turkish to persian blades. The epitome of such sabers was during the 16th-17th centuries and they mostly lost favour as fighting swords by the beginning of the 18th century. Early style Magyar saber however, remained as a mark of status for nobility, usualy highly decorated, like this one http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3670
The small stone fixture on the pommel is hungarian motif, so it's possible.

laEspadaAncha · 31st October 2012, 09:03 PM

What would those rather globular finials indicate? They seem atypical to the aesthetic of the rest of the hilt and appear out of proportion.

Would this indicate a more recent manufacture, or a provincial styling or interpretation? Either way, IMHO the execution of the finials is somewhat crude.

Also, there appears to be a hexagonal nut at the pommel cap. Can you please post a close-up of this construction?

Aside from the crossguard, I like the hilt, but between the atypical crossguard and blade, and what appears to be a hexagonal pommel nut, I'm wondering if this might be a marriage piece...

ariel · 1st November 2012, 12:13 AM

I saw it on e-bay and was only shaking my head... IMHO, this is as Hungarian as Chairman Mao. I cannot recall any Hungarian or Polish sword with a downturned pommel. I strongly suspect that the scabbard, its fittings and, perhaps, also the handle, are modern. Also, check the wooden core of the scabbard: likely it will be quite fresh.

Rather than traditional marriage, this is a case of swinging and swapping :-)

I would try to return it ASAP.

weapons 27 · 1st November 2012, 06:45 AM

Here are some pictures before his cleaning, polishing and protective wax...the wood of the sheath looks me old...

ALEX · 1st November 2012, 11:55 AM

I was holding my tongue as not to offend anyone. Thankfully, Ariel said it all quite nicely.
Quite often the collectors argue about some "features" and how they appear and could be, and that someone (mostly the seller:-) said it was something, etc. Just because something "looks like" or "appears" does not mean "it is"!!! Unless one spends considerable amount of time and effort to acquire genuine knowledge and expertise - these arguments, and sometimes denials, are costly downsides of the learning curve.

laEspadaAncha · 1st November 2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I was holding my tongue as not to offend anyone. Thankfully, Ariel said it all quite nicely.

Yes he did.

And here I was trying to be as diplomatic as possible for the same reason as you state...

You also touch up on an important point, something I think we all have experienced as part of the learning curve inherent to collecting: it's easy for collectors to find something right about a piece to justify its acquisition. However, the wise path is to recognize what's wrong.

And with regards to this particular example, unfortunately there is far more that's wrong with it than is right.

weapons 27 · 2nd November 2012, 12:15 PM

so if I understand your comments, the handle is not original and would be a recent wound...

ALEX · 2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM

First, you have to define "original" in terms of your collecting interests. It will depend on your individual preferences. Are you collecting any swords and weapons, or interested in certain time periods, origins, features and/or qualities?
So, first define your collecting goal and then match the item.
Also, what do you think this sword represents: like how old it is/time period, quality of fittings and blade, quality and type of work, details, materials used, etc?...
Look for more defined answers, not just overall look or form, like: "it looks like Hungarian". Finally, what do you like, or dislike" in it? What can you compare it with, i.e. another similar swords/references?
These questions are a must for any serious collector though:-)

P.S. this Forum's own guide will be helpful: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html

Good luck in your collecting!

weapons 27 · 3rd November 2012, 03:01 PM

I removed the back of the handle, I found a piece of threaded iron taken in a fairly hard resin that I removed .the mounting was used to maintain the tip.the Horn of the handle is a little attacked by insects and Horn sawdust fell, all former...I reattach the tip with a resin

YataganMan · 9th November 2012, 05:52 PM

Dear member,
I hate to say this but this sword has got nothing thats Ottoman /Turkish and what looks like is a syrian imitation with the exception of the blade all the fittings are new.As for the blade its is difficult to determine its origin age etc from the little picture that is supplıed bot I doubt very much if ıts Ottoman.
Regards

30th October 2012, 11:57 AM	#1
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	otoman sword for id can you give me the origin of this sword, I think Hungarian? It is 98 cm long, the blade 86 cm thanks Attached Images

30th October 2012, 12:03 PM	#2
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	the front frame is not part of this sabre Attached Images

1st November 2012, 06:45 AM	#10
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	Here are some pictures before his cleaning, polishing and protective wax...the wood of the sheath looks me old... Attached Images

2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM	#14
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	First, you have to define "original" in terms of your collecting interests. It will depend on your individual preferences. Are you collecting any swords and weapons, or interested in certain time periods, origins, features and/or qualities? So, first define your collecting goal and then match the item. Also, what do you think this sword represents: like how old it is/time period, quality of fittings and blade, quality and type of work, details, materials used, etc?... Look for more defined answers, not just overall look or form, like: "it looks like Hungarian". Finally, what do you like, or dislike" in it? What can you compare it with, i.e. another similar swords/references? These questions are a must for any serious collector though:-) P.S. this Forum's own guide will be helpful: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html Good luck in your collecting! Last edited by ALEX; 2nd November 2012 at 03:49 PM.

3rd November 2012, 03:01 PM	#15
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	I removed the back of the handle, I found a piece of threaded iron taken in a fairly hard resin that I removed .the mounting was used to maintain the tip.the Horn of the handle is a little attacked by insects and Horn sawdust fell, all former...I reattach the tip with a resin Attached Images

31st October 2012, 09:37 AM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Very interesting. The form is Syrian/Badawi but the work is not typical and intriguing. I have a Badawi saber with an old blade refurbished in contemporary improvised fittings, with a similar green velvet sheath, but the work is plain, not to say crude.

31st October 2012, 12:54 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Yep, this is an interesting piece. It does look like the Syrian saif but there is something off (very) with it.. I dont know, it could be as Broadaxe says? Things does get rehilted often in Syria and KSA.. so its all possible.

31st October 2012, 02:00 PM	#5
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	the person who sold it to me told me that it would be Hungarian !!!!

31st October 2012, 02:30 PM	#7
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I'm holding the best source about Hungarian swords, Kardok by Lugosi & Temesvary, besides I'd visited several collections in Hungary. While the design looks very closely to Syrian, this could be late court sword for lower rank nobility. Both Hungary and Poland adopted turkish-style sabers, often fitted with turkish to persian blades. The epitome of such sabers was during the 16th-17th centuries and they mostly lost favour as fighting swords by the beginning of the 18th century. Early style Magyar saber however, remained as a mark of status for nobility, usualy highly decorated, like this one http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3670 The small stone fixture on the pommel is hungarian motif, so it's possible.

31st October 2012, 09:03 PM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	What would those rather globular finials indicate? They seem atypical to the aesthetic of the rest of the hilt and appear out of proportion. Would this indicate a more recent manufacture, or a provincial styling or interpretation? Either way, IMHO the execution of the finials is somewhat crude. Also, there appears to be a hexagonal nut at the pommel cap. Can you please post a close-up of this construction? Aside from the crossguard, I like the hilt, but between the atypical crossguard and blade, and what appears to be a hexagonal pommel nut, I'm wondering if this might be a marriage piece...

1st November 2012, 12:13 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I saw it on e-bay and was only shaking my head... IMHO, this is as Hungarian as Chairman Mao. I cannot recall any Hungarian or Polish sword with a downturned pommel. I strongly suspect that the scabbard, its fittings and, perhaps, also the handle, are modern. Also, check the wooden core of the scabbard: likely it will be quite fresh. Rather than traditional marriage, this is a case of swinging and swapping :-) I would try to return it ASAP.

1st November 2012, 11:55 AM	#11
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I was holding my tongue as not to offend anyone. Thankfully, Ariel said it all quite nicely. Quite often the collectors argue about some "features" and how they appear and could be, and that someone (mostly the seller:-) said it was something, etc. Just because something "looks like" or "appears" does not mean "it is"!!! Unless one spends considerable amount of time and effort to acquire genuine knowledge and expertise - these arguments, and sometimes denials, are costly downsides of the learning curve.

2nd November 2012, 12:15 PM	#13
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	so if I understand your comments, the handle is not original and would be a recent wound...

9th November 2012, 05:52 PM	#16
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Ottoman sword ID Dear member, I hate to say this but this sword has got nothing thats Ottoman /Turkish and what looks like is a syrian imitation with the exception of the blade all the fittings are new.As for the blade its is difficult to determine its origin age etc from the little picture that is supplıed bot I doubt very much if ıts Ottoman. Regards