Roman arrowheads or not

Johan van Zyl · 30th September 2017, 09:56 AM

Thank you, Roland. I am relieved.

Looking at your picture, I get the feeling that these arrowheads would have remained in the enemy's body after the arrow had struck, and that "medical assistance" afterwards would have included digging the arrowhead out.

With the attachment of the shaft to the arrowhead as flimsy as it looks, if the arrow is extracted, the head would stay behind, I think.

I suppose some collector or student of ancient history would have reconstructed such a Greek-Roman arrow by now, to show the complete item? The shaft would have to be sharpened for insertion into the little hole in the arrowhead. Maybe they used some natural glue or resin.

Just wondering...

Victrix · 30th September 2017, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Thank you, Roland. I am relieved.

Looking at your picture, I get the feeling that these arrowheads would have remained in the enemy's body after the arrow had struck, and that "medical assistance" afterwards would have included digging the arrowhead out.

With the attachment of the shaft to the arrowhead as flimsy as it looks, if the arrow is extracted, the head would stay behind, I think.

I suppose some collector or student of ancient history would have reconstructed such a Greek-Roman arrow by now, to show the complete item? The shaft would have to be sharpened for insertion into the little hole in the arrowhead. Maybe they used some natural glue or resin.

Just wondering...

I had exactly the same thoughts. Also, I wonder if the ridges on the arrow head are meant to act like "fins" to help stabilize the arrow during its flight, or perhaps enhance its armour piercing properties?

Johan van Zyl · 30th September 2017, 02:46 PM

Victrix, I think the ridges are there not to cut the flesh, like in modern arrowheads, because they seem to have been made dull, even when new. I think they are there to increase the diameter of the head to maximize wound entry size, at the same time to increase the weight of the head marginally so that the arrow has mass and can travel far enough.

I like what you say about the armour-piercing properties, but do not agree (yet) that the ridges could act as stabilizing fins. But then, I have been known to err, big time!

Johan

kronckew · 30th September 2017, 07:09 PM

there's a ton of these coming from ukraine on ebay. lots of videos on how to cast your own, and they're readily available nice and shiny rather than aged. i'd be leery of any coming from there, or the balkans, another source of cheap bronze 'antiques' cast from mouldings of originals, warts and all. be very careful of any with tiny holes for arrow shafts like those above. someone hasn't bothered to drill out the sockets. and war arrows could have half- inch (12.5mm) shafts.

i have an friend in canada that makes arrows with the modern versions of these and shoots them from his horse-bow. (new cast ones below)

the design of the points was used from ancient times, and ones much like these in steel were on the mary rose of henry 8th, for use with their 100lb+ longbows. (also illustrated below)

they had sharp edges to widen the wound channel. modern hunters use a trilobed head for the same reason. it also is better for going thru shoulder blade or a rib cage, where a broad arrow head perpendicular to the run of the ribs might need to cut thru 2 ribs to go thru. quite easy to sharpen too, just rub them on a flat rock 2 edges at the same time. a sharp 60 degree edge will cut as well as a 25. pine resin glue works fine to hold them on the tapered ends.

Victrix · 30th September 2017, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

there's a ton of these coming from ukraine on ebay. lots of videos on how to cast your own, and they're readily available nice and shiny rather than aged. i'd be leery of any coming from there, or the balkans, another source of cheap bronze 'antiques' cast from mouldings of originals, warts and all. be very careful of any with tiny holes for arrow shafts like those above. someone hasn't bothered to drill out the sockets. and war arrows could have half- inch (12.5mm) shafts.

i have an friend in canada that makes arrows with the modern versions of these and shoots them from his horse-bow. (new cast ones below)

the design of the points was used from ancient times, and ones much like these in steel were on the mary rose of henry 8th, for use with their 100lb+ longbows. (also illustrated below)

they had sharp edges to widen the wound channel. modern hunters use a trilobed head for the same reason. it also is better for going thru shoulder blade or a rib cage, where a broad arrow head perpendicular to the run of the ribs might need to cut thru 2 ribs to go thru. quite easy to sharpen too, just rub them on a flat rock 2 edges at the same time. a sharp 60 degree edge will cut as well as a 25. pine resin glue works fine to hold them on the tapered ends.

Amazing. In this website you learn something new every day!

Johan van Zyl · 1st October 2017, 11:51 AM

I definitely second what you say, Victrix! Thank you to Kronckew for this extra information.

When I first read of the spectacular finds on the Mary Rose wreck, I found myself more interested in the old longbows than in new-fangled bows with wheels & ratchets & levers! Just think how strong those old bowmen must have been to pull 80-100lbs.

I wonder how the bows of the Romans/Greeks compare to the Mary Rose longbows...

Johan

kronckew · 1st October 2017, 03:08 PM

i gather they were a LOT weaker. probably at least half. greeks and early romans were not very inclined to archers, preferring slings and javelins for missile weapons, romans hired archers after their disasters with the parthian horse and these had better recurved bows, but still nowhere near the english bows. they had a few on exhibit that were in the 120-150 lb. range. they also had one setr up in the museum at portsmouth you could try to draw. try being the operative word. i could only draw it a few inches.

skeletons of english archers showed massive bone structures developed by years of practice and massive muscle attachments to match. tudor men were required by law to practice archery on sunday after church, and frivolities like football were forbidden. many of the open parks north of central london and just outside the old walls were actually set aside for archery. archers in wartime were well paid too, if they met the required standard.

30th September 2017, 07:09 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	there's a ton of these coming from ukraine on ebay. lots of videos on how to cast your own, and they're readily available nice and shiny rather than aged. i'd be leery of any coming from there, or the balkans, another source of cheap bronze 'antiques' cast from mouldings of originals, warts and all. be very careful of any with tiny holes for arrow shafts like those above. someone hasn't bothered to drill out the sockets. and war arrows could have half- inch (12.5mm) shafts. i have an friend in canada that makes arrows with the modern versions of these and shoots them from his horse-bow. (new cast ones below) the design of the points was used from ancient times, and ones much like these in steel were on the mary rose of henry 8th, for use with their 100lb+ longbows. (also illustrated below) they had sharp edges to widen the wound channel. modern hunters use a trilobed head for the same reason. it also is better for going thru shoulder blade or a rib cage, where a broad arrow head perpendicular to the run of the ribs might need to cut thru 2 ribs to go thru. quite easy to sharpen too, just rub them on a flat rock 2 edges at the same time. a sharp 60 degree edge will cut as well as a 25. pine resin glue works fine to hold them on the tapered ends. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 30th September 2017 at 07:37 PM.

30th September 2017, 09:56 AM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thank you, Roland. I am relieved. Looking at your picture, I get the feeling that these arrowheads would have remained in the enemy's body after the arrow had struck, and that "medical assistance" afterwards would have included digging the arrowhead out. With the attachment of the shaft to the arrowhead as flimsy as it looks, if the arrow is extracted, the head would stay behind, I think. I suppose some collector or student of ancient history would have reconstructed such a Greek-Roman arrow by now, to show the complete item? The shaft would have to be sharpened for insertion into the little hole in the arrowhead. Maybe they used some natural glue or resin. Just wondering...

30th September 2017, 02:46 PM	#3
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Victrix, I think the ridges are there not to cut the flesh, like in modern arrowheads, because they seem to have been made dull, even when new. I think they are there to increase the diameter of the head to maximize wound entry size, at the same time to increase the weight of the head marginally so that the arrow has mass and can travel far enough. I like what you say about the armour-piercing properties, but do not agree (yet) that the ridges could act as stabilizing fins. But then, I have been known to err, big time! Johan

1st October 2017, 11:51 AM	#6
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I definitely second what you say, Victrix! Thank you to Kronckew for this extra information. When I first read of the spectacular finds on the Mary Rose wreck, I found myself more interested in the old longbows than in new-fangled bows with wheels & ratchets & levers! Just think how strong those old bowmen must have been to pull 80-100lbs. I wonder how the bows of the Romans/Greeks compare to the Mary Rose longbows... Johan

1st October 2017, 03:08 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	i gather they were a LOT weaker. probably at least half. greeks and early romans were not very inclined to archers, preferring slings and javelins for missile weapons, romans hired archers after their disasters with the parthian horse and these had better recurved bows, but still nowhere near the english bows. they had a few on exhibit that were in the 120-150 lb. range. they also had one setr up in the museum at portsmouth you could try to draw. try being the operative word. i could only draw it a few inches. skeletons of english archers showed massive bone structures developed by years of practice and massive muscle attachments to match. tudor men were required by law to practice archery on sunday after church, and frivolities like football were forbidden. many of the open parks north of central london and just outside the old walls were actually set aside for archery. archers in wartime were well paid too, if they met the required standard.