Tourist or Real Deal?

kahnjar1 · 24th July 2015, 08:49 PM

These small brass/bronze "Indo/Persian" primer flasks seem relatively common, as they come up in auctions quite often. They have a screw plug at the "fat" end which would suggest that they are in fact made for use. The flask bodies are covered with Arabic script, which is NOT the same on all.
My feeling is that they are made for use, but what is the general feeling from Forum Members please?
Stu

Kubur · 24th July 2015, 09:53 PM

Hi Stu,
I was thinking like you.
They are very common and in good condition.
I don't know if they were used or not, but I'm pretty sure that they are from the beginning of the 20th c. They look similar to some tourist daggers from this period... Rick or Bandook have probably the answer.
Best,
Kubur

ward · 25th July 2015, 12:39 AM

The issue on these items is age 20th century is more appropriate. Flintlocks were still being used thru this time. Tourist stuff has to be somewhat flashy to sell. It does not mean that it is worth much, quality is quality. dreck is dreck.

kahnjar1 · 25th July 2015, 07:45 AM

Hi Ward,
So I take it that in your view these were made to be used, rather than to sell as tourist items, which is really the question I was asking?
I have no doubt that they are not that old, as you say 20th century.
Stu

Kubur · 25th July 2015, 09:41 AM

I changed my mind. I spot one with a date 1866.
They are all from Turkey. Maybe some stuff from regular Ottoman army??
I hope that a member has a proper answer...

BANDOOK · 25th July 2015, 10:00 AM

GREETINGS
THE ONES POSTED HERE LOOK LIKE 50s-60s MADE,SO I WOULD SAY VINTAGE BUT NOT ANTIQUES,TURKEY LIKE INDIA AND MORROCO HAVE LOTS OF REPRODUCTIONS AS TOO MUCH DEMAND FROM THE TOURIST MARKETS/SOUKS .PLEASE CHECK EBAY AND ONE WOULD SEE 1000s OF FAKE INDO-PERSIAN ARMS COMMING OUT OF INDIA,CHEERS

Kubur · 25th July 2015, 10:11 AM

You are probably right Rajesh. It's easy to copy a date on a touristic object.
Are they touristic objects from Turkey or Iran?

ward · 25th July 2015, 03:41 PM

We get into a yes and no answer on items like these. let us say you have 5 of these primers in the souq. 2 get sold to goat farmers,1 to some rebel in the hills, and 2 to tourist. Is the piece tourist or not? These are functional.

Some of the pistols, knifes, and swords sold in the souq would not stand the first use without being seriously damaged or destroyed. Those particular items are obviously made for just decoration and sold to tourist.

Yemen daggers are another example of this. Men have worn these for years and I am sure the same craftsman that sold to them also sold to tourist.

Kubur · 25th July 2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

We get into a yes and no answer on items like these. let us say you have 5 of these primers in the souq. 2 get sold to goat farmers,1 to some rebel in the hills, and 2 to tourist. Is the piece tourist or not? These are functional.

Some of the pistols, knifes, and swords sold in the souq would not stand the first use without being seriously damaged or destroyed. Those particular items are obviously made for just decoration and sold to tourist.

Yemen daggers are another example of this. Men have worn these for years and I am sure the same craftsman that sold to them also sold to tourist.

Well well, first tourist items don't need to be flashy. You mix two things, tourist items from the end of the 19th or early 20th. These items were of a very good quality, we can even put in this category some late Qajar weapons. Tourist items nowadays are flashy and for half of them made in China. These powder flasks are interesting and I think this thread is very exciting. They look functionnal. They are functionnal for you. Not for me, but I'm always ready to change my mind with good arguments. To finish I post some tourist daggers, with exactly the decoration that you can find on these powder flasks.

Ian · 25th July 2015, 04:47 PM

Ward, I think you are saying that if an item was made for an intended purpose/use, and it happens to be bought by a collector/tourist then it is still a valid artifact from that culture. Therefore, if it was not made for an intended use, it is a piece of commercial decorative art that may have some value but is not the real deal. Is that correct?

This is an issue that has been debated by antique collectors, dealers and artists for years and I have not heard a consensus emerge. Perhaps this is an issue we could address in a separate thread if you would like to start one.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

We get into a yes and no answer on items like these. let us say you have 5 of these primers in the souq. 2 get sold to goat farmers,1 to some rebel in the hills, and 2 to tourist. Is the piece tourist or not? These are functional.

Some of the pistols, knifes, and swords sold in the souq would not stand the first use without being seriously damaged or destroyed. Those particular items are obviously made for just decoration and sold to tourist.

Yemen daggers are another example of this. Men have worn these for years and I am sure the same craftsman that sold to them also sold to tourist.

Kubur · 25th July 2015, 04:50 PM

antoher one in my library.

ward · 25th July 2015, 05:03 PM

Yes Ian that is a good summary. The line drawn on tourist or not is iffy at best.

ward · 25th July 2015, 05:16 PM

I believe that knife would be hard pressed to keep a sharp edge. So I would classify that item as decorative.

A lot of qajar weapons fall into the religious festival use so again a iffy subject. Other cultures have their own various reenactments or celebrations.

kahnjar1 · 25th July 2015, 08:05 PM

Thanks all who replied here. I am happy with the answer that as these are functional items, and that they are not SPECIFICALLY made for the tourist trade.
I will follow with interest Ward's new post.
Stu

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 06:15 PM

Hi Stu.
Now look what you've gone and done. You re-opened this can of worms. LOL!!

Seriously, it's a great question that will probably be discussed around collector camp fires for more years to come. And yes, it's probably worthy of it's own Thread.
The answer(s) could be "all of the above". These flasks seem to fall in three "general" catagories. 1. Genuine antique items, say pre-1920's that were made of enough quality to be functional, yet could also be sold to a tourist. 2. Items made in the last three quarters of the 20th Century to be sold primarily to tourists. 3. Then there's everything else made from the late 20th Century through today. Many of the metal flasks I see for sale today look as if they were made from wax castings of an original. And they are even reasonably well made and functional, but just not old, or carried by a warrior.

Here are some pics of a well made - but still a Tourist item. Have no idea how old it is, but I'm guessing it's about mid 1950's or so. There are two reasons I know this is a tourist item. 1. The strap is made of tight woven, but thin cotton. Which produces more vivid colors, but not as strong as wool. 2. The most important feature is that if you poke a pencil dowm the spout, it is not drilled through to the base of the flask body. So there's no way to add powder.
Rick.

24th July 2015, 08:49 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Tourist or Real Deal? These small brass/bronze "Indo/Persian" primer flasks seem relatively common, as they come up in auctions quite often. They have a screw plug at the "fat" end which would suggest that they are in fact made for use. The flask bodies are covered with Arabic script, which is NOT the same on all. My feeling is that they are made for use, but what is the general feeling from Forum Members please? Stu Attached Images

25th July 2015, 03:41 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	We get into a yes and no answer on items like these. let us say you have 5 of these primers in the souq. 2 get sold to goat farmers,1 to some rebel in the hills, and 2 to tourist. Is the piece tourist or not? These are functional. Some of the pistols, knifes, and swords sold in the souq would not stand the first use without being seriously damaged or destroyed. Those particular items are obviously made for just decoration and sold to tourist. Yemen daggers are another example of this. Men have worn these for years and I am sure the same craftsman that sold to them also sold to tourist. Last edited by ward; 25th July 2015 at 03:48 PM. Reason: spelling mistake

25th July 2015, 04:50 PM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	antoher one in my library. Attached Images

25th July 2015, 08:05 PM	#14
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Thanks Gentlemen Thanks all who replied here. I am happy with the answer that as these are functional items, and that they are not SPECIFICALLY made for the tourist trade. I will follow with interest Ward's new post. Stu

26th July 2015, 06:15 PM	#15
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Stu. Now look what you've gone and done. You re-opened this can of worms. LOL!! Seriously, it's a great question that will probably be discussed around collector camp fires for more years to come. And yes, it's probably worthy of it's own Thread. The answer(s) could be "all of the above". These flasks seem to fall in three "general" catagories. 1. Genuine antique items, say pre-1920's that were made of enough quality to be functional, yet could also be sold to a tourist. 2. Items made in the last three quarters of the 20th Century to be sold primarily to tourists. 3. Then there's everything else made from the late 20th Century through today. Many of the metal flasks I see for sale today look as if they were made from wax castings of an original. And they are even reasonably well made and functional, but just not old, or carried by a warrior. Here are some pics of a well made - but still a Tourist item. Have no idea how old it is, but I'm guessing it's about mid 1950's or so. There are two reasons I know this is a tourist item. 1. The strap is made of tight woven, but thin cotton. Which produces more vivid colors, but not as strong as wool. 2. The most important feature is that if you poke a pencil dowm the spout, it is not drilled through to the base of the flask body. So there's no way to add powder. Rick. Attached Images

24th July 2015, 09:53 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Stu, I was thinking like you. They are very common and in good condition. I don't know if they were used or not, but I'm pretty sure that they are from the beginning of the 20th c. They look similar to some tourist daggers from this period... Rick or Bandook have probably the answer. Best, Kubur

25th July 2015, 12:39 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The issue on these items is age 20th century is more appropriate. Flintlocks were still being used thru this time. Tourist stuff has to be somewhat flashy to sell. It does not mean that it is worth much, quality is quality. dreck is dreck.

25th July 2015, 07:45 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Hi Ward, So I take it that in your view these were made to be used, rather than to sell as tourist items, which is really the question I was asking? I have no doubt that they are not that old, as you say 20th century. Stu

25th July 2015, 09:41 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I changed my mind. I spot one with a date 1866. They are all from Turkey. Maybe some stuff from regular Ottoman army?? I hope that a member has a proper answer...

25th July 2015, 10:00 AM	#6
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	GREETINGS THE ONES POSTED HERE LOOK LIKE 50s-60s MADE,SO I WOULD SAY VINTAGE BUT NOT ANTIQUES,TURKEY LIKE INDIA AND MORROCO HAVE LOTS OF REPRODUCTIONS AS TOO MUCH DEMAND FROM THE TOURIST MARKETS/SOUKS .PLEASE CHECK EBAY AND ONE WOULD SEE 1000s OF FAKE INDO-PERSIAN ARMS COMMING OUT OF INDIA,CHEERS

25th July 2015, 10:11 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	You are probably right Rajesh. It's easy to copy a date on a touristic object. Are they touristic objects from Turkey or Iran?

25th July 2015, 05:03 PM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes Ian that is a good summary. The line drawn on tourist or not is iffy at best.

25th July 2015, 05:16 PM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I believe that knife would be hard pressed to keep a sharp edge. So I would classify that item as decorative. A lot of qajar weapons fall into the religious festival use so again a iffy subject. Other cultures have their own various reenactments or celebrations.