My First Kris

Emanuel · 1st March 2016, 07:02 PM

Hello,

You have to differentiate between the short sword KRIS sundang from the Philippines, and the KERIS dagger from the Indonesian archipelago. Your first piece is a KRIS. Your other 4 are KERIS. The Balinese one actually doesn't looka that old.

The KRIS sword blades should not take a set, while the KERIS daggers might, as they're lower carbon-content and softer.

Emanuel

David · 1st March 2016, 08:06 PM

You will remember that i originally shifted this thread to the Ethno forum because the kris you posted was not an Indonesian/Malay keris. Well, now you are posting Indonesian keris and these need to be discussed on the keris forum, not here.
While this two weapons have an overall similar form (the Indonesian keris being the ancestor to later development of Moro kris/kalis forms) they are from different cultures and operate differently as weapons (stabbing vs. slashing). If you want to talk about these Indonesian keris please post them on the Keris Forum.
While keris are usually hardened (some more recent ones perhaps not), they are more likely to be softer (lower carbon) than their Moro cousins. But honestly you baffle me a bit here. Why on earth would you want to bend an the blade risking irrevocable damage and possibly breaking these blades?

I am afraid i just don't understand that.

David · 1st March 2016, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

The Balinese one actually doesn't looka that old.

Emanuel, the "Bali" keris posted here is probably the oldest of the lot and in fact seems to have some considerable age. The dress for it is late 20th century, but the blade is fairly old and looks to be to perhaps be of Javanese origin.

Battara · 2nd March 2016, 01:03 AM

I must agree with David here. Although both kris and kris are cousins and part of the same family tree, they are of course not the same. For that reason kris are discussed here and keris are discussed on the Keris Forum.

arsendaday · 2nd March 2016, 02:11 AM

Hi everyone. My apologies for being a little confused about the "Kris" & "Keris". When I was buying these daggers the descriptions on all of them had kris and keris in them, but I am learning and will be more careful next time. I really appreciate all the input and comments.

As for the blade bending; I am not doing it all the way, nor did I ever ruin any blades by doing so. What I am doing is feeling it a little bit, to determine if it is a quality steel or not. As most of you know the European blades are very springy and some of them can be bent well over 45 degrees without any harm to the blade. More over in Russian factories in Zlatoust and Izhevsk that's how they determined if the blade is of good quality or not, i.e. by hanging weight from the tip of the blade and checking how much weight it would take before it would bend out of shape. BTW the markings on some of the early Soviet Shashkas meant just that: i.e. 15КГ or 17КГ meaning 15 or 17 kilograms, before the blade would not bend back to its original form completely. So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it. And if your shashka doesn't bend more than 30 degrees and spring back completely than it's a fake for sure. I would not really hang any weights from my blades for sure, and if the blade is too old or valuable I just leave them be, but I have a very old Caucasian Shashka that can be bend almost into a circle without any damage to the blade. And bunch of other Russian and European swords and daggers that will bend to a certain degree. As one old sayings goes "a shashka should be as elastic as a vine..."

But I digress. I will probably start a new thread about the elasticity of the bladed weapons, with the moderators' permission of course, as soon as I have enough material to do so. In the meantime I will try to learn more about the Kris and Keris, because I find these weapons very fascinating. Thanks again.

P.S. Here are some photos of the markings that I was talking about. The first one is a real mark of a 1927 NKVD Shaska, while the second is a fake Shashka with a wrong mark, because it reads 18KP which doesn't make any sense.

David · 2nd March 2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsendaday

So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it.

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.

Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

arsendaday · 2nd March 2016, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.

Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

LOL, I promise I will not bend any more kris or keris.

I too like them for what they are, a beautiful piece of culture and tradition, artfully incorporated into a weapon. I was just wandering if that's how they should be.

VANDOO · 2nd March 2016, 11:12 PM

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK.

THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.
THE MORO KRIS MAY HAVE A PATTERNED OR WATERED STEEL BLADE BUT NOT A PARMOR BLADE AND APPARENTLY IS NOT BRITTLE AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BROKEN EXAMPLES EVEN OF THOSE WITH BULLET HOLES AND DEEP CUTS TO THE EDGES. THERE ARE MONO STEEL MORO KRIS AS WELL MOSTLY MADE DURING SPANISH AND AMERICAN OCCUPATION ESPECIALLY WW2 AND LATER. JUST SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON KERIS AND KRIS.

arsendaday · 3rd March 2016, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK.

THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.

Thank you! And that's exactly why I started this "bending" subject. Aside from keris' looks and religious or spiritual aspects, a keris is, first of all, a weapon. And if your weapon can bend or brake during a fight than how useful is it really. What I want to find out about these "daggers" is if they were always made this way, or at some point in the past, due to a shift from a weapon to a religious and/or traditional symbol, the blacksmiths just stopped making them battle-worthy and only concentrated on the looks. It happened to Caucasian kindjals and at some point they were even making kindjals with a beautiful and expensive handles and sheaths (from silver or ivory) and an aluminum blade. Just a wall hanger.
So my question is if anybody owns, or has seen a keris with a blade that is of high quality steel and which will be able to withstand a battle.

2nd March 2016, 02:11 AM	#5
arsendaday Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 44	Apologies Hi everyone. My apologies for being a little confused about the "Kris" & "Keris". When I was buying these daggers the descriptions on all of them had kris and keris in them, but I am learning and will be more careful next time. I really appreciate all the input and comments. As for the blade bending; I am not doing it all the way, nor did I ever ruin any blades by doing so. What I am doing is feeling it a little bit, to determine if it is a quality steel or not. As most of you know the European blades are very springy and some of them can be bent well over 45 degrees without any harm to the blade. More over in Russian factories in Zlatoust and Izhevsk that's how they determined if the blade is of good quality or not, i.e. by hanging weight from the tip of the blade and checking how much weight it would take before it would bend out of shape. BTW the markings on some of the early Soviet Shashkas meant just that: i.e. 15КГ or 17КГ meaning 15 or 17 kilograms, before the blade would not bend back to its original form completely. So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it. And if your shashka doesn't bend more than 30 degrees and spring back completely than it's a fake for sure. I would not really hang any weights from my blades for sure, and if the blade is too old or valuable I just leave them be, but I have a very old Caucasian Shashka that can be bend almost into a circle without any damage to the blade. And bunch of other Russian and European swords and daggers that will bend to a certain degree. As one old sayings goes "a shashka should be as elastic as a vine..." But I digress. I will probably start a new thread about the elasticity of the bladed weapons, with the moderators' permission of course, as soon as I have enough material to do so. In the meantime I will try to learn more about the Kris and Keris, because I find these weapons very fascinating. Thanks again. P.S. Here are some photos of the markings that I was talking about. The first one is a real mark of a 1927 NKVD Shaska, while the second is a fake Shashka with a wrong mark, because it reads 18KP which doesn't make any sense. Attached Images

1st March 2016, 07:02 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, You have to differentiate between the short sword KRIS sundang from the Philippines, and the KERIS dagger from the Indonesian archipelago. Your first piece is a KRIS. Your other 4 are KERIS. The Balinese one actually doesn't looka that old. The KRIS sword blades should not take a set, while the KERIS daggers might, as they're lower carbon-content and softer. Emanuel

1st March 2016, 08:06 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,044	You will remember that i originally shifted this thread to the Ethno forum because the kris you posted was not an Indonesian/Malay keris. Well, now you are posting Indonesian keris and these need to be discussed on the keris forum, not here. While this two weapons have an overall similar form (the Indonesian keris being the ancestor to later development of Moro kris/kalis forms) they are from different cultures and operate differently as weapons (stabbing vs. slashing). If you want to talk about these Indonesian keris please post them on the Keris Forum. While keris are usually hardened (some more recent ones perhaps not), they are more likely to be softer (lower carbon) than their Moro cousins. But honestly you baffle me a bit here. Why on earth would you want to bend an the blade risking irrevocable damage and possibly breaking these blades? I am afraid i just don't understand that.

2nd March 2016, 01:03 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I must agree with David here. Although both kris and kris are cousins and part of the same family tree, they are of course not the same. For that reason kris are discussed here and keris are discussed on the Keris Forum.

2nd March 2016, 11:12 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK. THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL. THE MORO KRIS MAY HAVE A PATTERNED OR WATERED STEEL BLADE BUT NOT A PARMOR BLADE AND APPARENTLY IS NOT BRITTLE AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BROKEN EXAMPLES EVEN OF THOSE WITH BULLET HOLES AND DEEP CUTS TO THE EDGES. THERE ARE MONO STEEL MORO KRIS AS WELL MOSTLY MADE DURING SPANISH AND AMERICAN OCCUPATION ESPECIALLY WW2 AND LATER. JUST SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON KERIS AND KRIS.