giant tenegre

CCUAL · 18th October 2018, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Dear Roland:

Your observation that this may be a wootz blade is very interesting, but I think it is unlikely. I would like to see clearer pictures of the pattern, which in places appears (to my eyes) to show lamination. There are (almost) no examples of wootz being used among the Muslim groups of the southern Philippines, and those one or two that have been reported may not have been true wootz. There is no clear evidence that wootz was actually made in the Philippines, or the wider Malay world as far as I know.

Is it possible that you are looking at another form of crucible steel with dendritic features, such as a piece of Spanish steel that has been repurposed? The technical details of wootz are outside my field, so I shall defer to those with more expertise.

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

Again, that doesn't mean that you have not seen though out your old collecting years it does not exist. India for example are very fun of creating this steel, and their just a neighboring country of PI. In fact their are bunch of them there now practicing 5-6.

Who knows, may be when they came to PI's southern part specially to teach Mohammedanism, what made you think that they did not bring any of their good stuff? wootz steel in particular? You need to scout the entire PI which for sure you have not done - then and now.., and then, you can make this conclusive statements like you just did.

large headed nails:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=moro

Ian · 18th October 2018, 10:24 PM

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

xasterix · 19th October 2018, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

Hi sir, while I have no input regarding the sword's wootz-ness, would just like to gently point out that the sword in question (Panay Tenegre) came from Panay, that's in the Visayas, not in Mindanao (where the Moros thrived). Although I'm not sure if the Visayan traditional smiths back then can do wootz; certainly I haven't heard of any Visayan antique blade that exhibited wootz.

kino · 19th October 2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines.

Ian

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Ian · 19th October 2018, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Hi kino:

Thanks for the link to your chevron-bladed kris. As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay. The largest extant Indian population in SE Asia is in Singapore and it is possible that some elements of Indian metal working existed there in the 19th C. Malaya and Singapore were part of the British Empire at that time, as well as India.

As I was careful to state earlier in this thread, I'm open to the possibility of wootz being used to make a Moro edged weapon, but such a finding would be very rare. Just as rare, say, as a chevron-bladed kris of which there has been one example shown on this forum and none of our experienced commenters have seen another.

Ian.

Ian · 20th October 2018, 03:22 PM

Hello xasterix:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the reminder that we are dealing with a Panay tenegre. I had not forgotten. The natives of Panay are not noted for their extensive sea traveling and trade with foreigners, although Chinese merchants and other Filipino groups have been active in that area. It is probably one of the least likely places in the Philippines to have found a blade made of wootz. For wootz to arrive there would require trade with a foreigner or possibly in the form of a gift.

The Moro, especially those of the Sulu Archipelago, on the other hand were extensive seafarers and noted pirates of the South China Sea. They traded with N. Borneo, Brunei, Malaysia, China, etc. and were much more likely to come in contact with foreign goods via those sources. The Moro are also Muslims and wootz is associated with other Muslim groups, so a further connection might occur through the commonality of religion and culture. Whatever the possible pathway of wootz into the Philippines, it is much more likely that it would pass through Moro hands than come directly to a native of Panay. That is why I spoke of a Moro influence in connection with this sword. The fact that we see very few, if any, examples of wootz in Moro blades makes this tenegre all the more difficult to understand (if the steel is indeed wootz).

If Roland is correct, it is baffling how this sword came about.

Ian.

kino · 20th October 2018, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi kino:

As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay.

There’s only one mention of “Malay”, in the thread of the chevron patterned kris and it is in reference to the hilt cup not the blade

ariel · 20th October 2018, 06:48 PM

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

RSWORD · 20th October 2018, 09:35 PM

No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.

kino · 3rd November 2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

Thank you Ariel for sharing this anecdote.

20th October 2018, 06:48 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade. According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147). Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct. In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job. Last edited by ariel; 20th October 2018 at 10:20 PM.

18th October 2018, 10:24 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,042	CCUAL: I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common. As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca. Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region. Ian

20th October 2018, 03:22 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,042	Hello xasterix: Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the reminder that we are dealing with a Panay tenegre. I had not forgotten. The natives of Panay are not noted for their extensive sea traveling and trade with foreigners, although Chinese merchants and other Filipino groups have been active in that area. It is probably one of the least likely places in the Philippines to have found a blade made of wootz. For wootz to arrive there would require trade with a foreigner or possibly in the form of a gift. The Moro, especially those of the Sulu Archipelago, on the other hand were extensive seafarers and noted pirates of the South China Sea. They traded with N. Borneo, Brunei, Malaysia, China, etc. and were much more likely to come in contact with foreign goods via those sources. The Moro are also Muslims and wootz is associated with other Muslim groups, so a further connection might occur through the commonality of religion and culture. Whatever the possible pathway of wootz into the Philippines, it is much more likely that it would pass through Moro hands than come directly to a native of Panay. That is why I spoke of a Moro influence in connection with this sword. The fact that we see very few, if any, examples of wootz in Moro blades makes this tenegre all the more difficult to understand (if the steel is indeed wootz). If Roland is correct, it is baffling how this sword came about. Ian.

20th October 2018, 09:35 PM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.