What can you tell me about this sword?

David R · 14th September 2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello, erikmarko

Yesterday my friend came to me - a collector of Caucasian and Russian weapons. He looked at the photo and said that he was 90% sure (you can be 100% sure only when the item is in your hands) that this is an old shashka for the late 19th – early 20th century. He believes that the shashka belonged to an officer of the Russian Empire, so the Emperor’s monogram on the hilt is normal. A blade with an engraving of low quality, according to my friend, was simply made not in a large well-known weapon manufacturing center (such as Kubachi), but somewhere in the periphery.
For me, a good argument that your shashka is genuine was the words of my friend that he was ready to buy it from you

A good point about the need to see it in hand to be certain. To me the clincher is the quality of the silver-work, repousse and niello rather than poor filigree.... Do my eyes deceive me, or is that a pattern welded blade?

mahratt · 14th September 2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

A good point about the need to see it in hand to be certain. To me the clincher is the quality of the silver-work, repousse and niello rather than poor filigree.... Do my eyes deceive me, or is that a pattern welded blade?

I looked at the photo again more carefully. I think this is an imitation of a pattern welded blade. By the way, this, in my opinion, once again may indicate that this is an authentic shashka.

Ren Ren · 14th September 2019, 02:17 PM

Miracles sometimes happen and this cannot be denied.
In this case, I must admit that in the hands of Eric was a truly rare shashka in excellent condition.

Ren Ren · 14th September 2019, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think this is an imitation of a pattern welded blade.

I agree, this is an imitation of a welded pattern.

erikmarko · 14th September 2019, 07:12 PM

Wow, so the Russian collector of weapons says that it's most likely authentic shashka. Now can you guys tell me if this weapon would have been used in fights or just for show. Can someone tell me what the meaning of the moon/sun/stars and the clouds I suppose running along the blade is? And what does the number 149 mean?

Thanks

Ren Ren · 15th September 2019, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikmarko

Can someone tell me what the meaning of the moon/sun/stars and the clouds I suppose running along the blade is? And what does the number 149 mean?

Thanks

These symbols mean that the blade is a rough Caucasian copy of the Hungarian and German blades of the XVII - early XVIII centuries

Such blades were highly valued and actively copied by local craftsmen in the late XIX - early XX centuries.

ariel · 15th September 2019, 01:31 PM

In my guesstimate there is a great contrast between a high quality of the handle and an atrocious blade.
Caucasian masters often imitated classic decorations of the highly valued German blades, and necessarily left some clues indicating the forgery.
But this one beats them all! It is beyond poor, it is childish.

I have a great difficulty to believe that a high-class master of the handle chose such a low-quality blade for a whole ensemble. I am also not sure about another point: even though we cannot see the entire shashka, it seems to me that the axis of the handle does not coincide with the axis of the blade. At least in Indian swords this suggests that the blade was remounted.

Overall, I would rather entertain a notion that it was a recent shotgun marriage of convenience. And would not exclude the possibility that the blade was made recently and aged artificially.

I might be wrong, but the opinion of a Russian expert is also only 90%, which is not reassuring: it is safely within the 2SD range:-)))))

In short, I would not buy it . If the Russian expert wishes to acquire it, my inclination would be to get rid of it.

corrado26 · 15th September 2019, 02:28 PM

The same I said with less words in post #12.
corrado26

sfenoid13 · 14th September 2019, 08:50 PM

This is a reproduction(saying it is “fake” makes no sense). It is a replica basically. The different parts and patina on the sword do not match. The patina is not natural and those putting sand rust can be reproduced. Since the handle is not a horn or another natural material it’s easy to tell it’s newly made. It is higher quality reproduction but nonetheless newly made. If you have been around in this business for , let’s say 5 years, you could easily tell this I. The first minute of looking at it. My 2 cents

erikmarko · 15th September 2019, 12:10 AM

Sfenoid, I don't think you got the memo. The Russian collection that deals in this sort of weapons has a different opinion. You seem to be 100% convinced that it's a "reproduction" which in itself is a red flag. Btw wouldn't a "reproduction" try to copy a brand new/original look of something? If this thing was distressed to look old and original I would consider it "fake".

sfenoid13 · 16th September 2019, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikmarko

Sfenoid, I don't think you got the memo. The Russian collection that deals in this sort of weapons has a different opinion. You seem to be 100% convinced that it's a "reproduction" which in itself is a red flag. Btw wouldn't a "reproduction" try to copy a brand new/original look of something? If this thing was distressed to look old and original I would consider it "fake".

You can consider it whatever you want, fake or reproduction, doesn’t matter. It is not antique as far my eyes can see. If you don’t like the answers you are getting then you should have not asked in the first place. You will believe what you want to believe . The price of an item is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If that’s what it is worth to you and it is what it is. You are looking for someone to confirm your gut feelings, well that’s not me. You should try to see if that Russian collector will pay for, who also just looked at some pictures as well. These things are hard to buy just looking at pictures. Go with the Russians opinion if that makes you feel better

Ian · 15th September 2019, 02:04 AM

An interesting discussion here on what is old and what is reproduction, with some strong arguments each way. What it tells me is that I should be very wary of shashka that are said to be old and of high quality. These are not swords I have researched or own, but the recent surge of reproductions has diminished my appetite for acquiring any.

I'm not coming down on either side of the discussion, but what interests me is how experienced collectors can be strongly divergent in their views. Caveat emptor indeed!

mariusgmioc · 15th September 2019, 06:26 AM

I am by no means very knowledgeable about Caucasian weapons but the blade shows very clear signs of pitting and the engravings are pretty worn out. It is like the sword was rusty and then cleaned, with remaining patches of pitting where the rust got deeper.
To me this points into the direction of a genuine blade.

As with regards to the hilt, it appears to be quality work that displays deep black patination with some wear of the protruding decorative elements.
So, the hilt looks to be equally original and authentic.

However, what bothers me is the continuity of the edge.
The cutting edge is the thinest, thus the most sensitive to corrosion, part of the blade. So normally, in a blade that was rusty then cleaned, you would find small nicks in the edge where rust has bitten into the edge from both sides.
I do not see any such nicks in the edge of this blade.
Moreover, judging from the photos, the edge appears somehow rounded. This may be because
1. the blade never had a real cutting edge, being a replica all along, or,
2. the edge was dulled during the cleaning process.
In the second case, the loss of the edge would mean a reduction in the width of the blade, but I cannot discern any such kind of reduction.

So, in the end I am quite confused with mixed oppinions about the sword.

A strong point would be the quality of the steel of the blade. If the blade is stiff/elastic enough to be used for fighting, it would point again into the direction of an authentic blade.

erikmarko · 15th September 2019, 07:21 AM

I don't know if that will tell you anything but when I got this sword the entire blade was covered in some kind of gunky substance I suppose to protect it from rusting and it took me couple of days just to get it of the blade. The edge of the blade feels like it was quite sharp at some point.

15th September 2019, 06:26 AM	#13
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	I am by no means very knowledgeable about Caucasian weapons but the blade shows very clear signs of pitting and the engravings are pretty worn out. It is like the sword was rusty and then cleaned, with remaining patches of pitting where the rust got deeper. To me this points into the direction of a genuine blade. As with regards to the hilt, it appears to be quality work that displays deep black patination with some wear of the protruding decorative elements. So, the hilt looks to be equally original and authentic. However, what bothers me is the continuity of the edge. The cutting edge is the thinest, thus the most sensitive to corrosion, part of the blade. So normally, in a blade that was rusty then cleaned, you would find small nicks in the edge where rust has bitten into the edge from both sides. I do not see any such nicks in the edge of this blade. Moreover, judging from the photos, the edge appears somehow rounded. This may be because 1. the blade never had a real cutting edge, being a replica all along, or, 2. the edge was dulled during the cleaning process. In the second case, the loss of the edge would mean a reduction in the width of the blade, but I cannot discern any such kind of reduction. So, in the end I am quite confused with mixed oppinions about the sword. A strong point would be the quality of the steel of the blade. If the blade is stiff/elastic enough to be used for fighting, it would point again into the direction of an authentic blade. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 15th September 2019 at 06:40 AM.

14th September 2019, 02:17 PM	#3
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 367	Miracles sometimes happen and this cannot be denied. In this case, I must admit that in the hands of Eric was a truly rare shashka in excellent condition.

14th September 2019, 07:12 PM	#5
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	Wow, so the Russian collector of weapons says that it's most likely authentic shashka. Now can you guys tell me if this weapon would have been used in fights or just for show. Can someone tell me what the meaning of the moon/sun/stars and the clouds I suppose running along the blade is? And what does the number 149 mean? Thanks

15th September 2019, 01:31 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In my guesstimate there is a great contrast between a high quality of the handle and an atrocious blade. Caucasian masters often imitated classic decorations of the highly valued German blades, and necessarily left some clues indicating the forgery. But this one beats them all! It is beyond poor, it is childish. I have a great difficulty to believe that a high-class master of the handle chose such a low-quality blade for a whole ensemble. I am also not sure about another point: even though we cannot see the entire shashka, it seems to me that the axis of the handle does not coincide with the axis of the blade. At least in Indian swords this suggests that the blade was remounted. Overall, I would rather entertain a notion that it was a recent shotgun marriage of convenience. And would not exclude the possibility that the blade was made recently and aged artificially. I might be wrong, but the opinion of a Russian expert is also only 90%, which is not reassuring: it is safely within the 2SD range:-))))) In short, I would not buy it . If the Russian expert wishes to acquire it, my inclination would be to get rid of it.

15th September 2019, 02:28 PM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,173	The same I said with less words in post #12. corrado26

14th September 2019, 08:50 PM	#9
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	This is a reproduction(saying it is “fake” makes no sense). It is a replica basically. The different parts and patina on the sword do not match. The patina is not natural and those putting sand rust can be reproduced. Since the handle is not a horn or another natural material it’s easy to tell it’s newly made. It is higher quality reproduction but nonetheless newly made. If you have been around in this business for , let’s say 5 years, you could easily tell this I. The first minute of looking at it. My 2 cents

15th September 2019, 12:10 AM	#10
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	Sfenoid, I don't think you got the memo. The Russian collection that deals in this sort of weapons has a different opinion. You seem to be 100% convinced that it's a "reproduction" which in itself is a red flag. Btw wouldn't a "reproduction" try to copy a brand new/original look of something? If this thing was distressed to look old and original I would consider it "fake".

15th September 2019, 02:04 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,062	So hard to tell real from reproduction An interesting discussion here on what is old and what is reproduction, with some strong arguments each way. What it tells me is that I should be very wary of shashka that are said to be old and of high quality. These are not swords I have researched or own, but the recent surge of reproductions has diminished my appetite for acquiring any. I'm not coming down on either side of the discussion, but what interests me is how experienced collectors can be strongly divergent in their views. Caveat emptor indeed!

15th September 2019, 07:21 AM	#14
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	I don't know if that will tell you anything but when I got this sword the entire blade was covered in some kind of gunky substance I suppose to protect it from rusting and it took me couple of days just to get it of the blade. The edge of the blade feels like it was quite sharp at some point.