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Old 10th November 2009, 04:20 PM   #1
viklund_p
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Default Odd handle for a Kampilan?

Hi wizards and experts,
-New to the forum I'd like to share some images on a sword that I've been told is a Kampilan but that has a handle I haven't seen in any of your forum images

Been in the family since 1930 and it was said to have been old already then when my Grandmother's brother picked it up in the Philipines

I would be interested in details on its origin and what you think about the handle...(why it is different from any other handles I've seen for Kampilans on the forum)

The blade is 70cm (27.5")








Thanks

Per
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Old 10th November 2009, 04:57 PM   #2
Rick
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The handle style reminds me of Spunjer's avatar .

The blade ?
Very oddball for a Kampilan .
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Old 10th November 2009, 06:59 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The handle style reminds me of Spunjer's avatar .

The blade ?
Very oddball for a Kampilan .


Thanks.
Any hints on where I can find pitures and more information about a "Spunjer's avatar" ?

/Per
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Old 10th November 2009, 07:36 PM   #4
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Hej Per,

If you have a look in Leiden's picture database you will find resembling ones with hilts like yours collected on Timor (at www.rmv.nl)
This doesn't necessarily mean that yours has to be from Timor but that it probably is an older variation, that somehow survived longer
among the ex-pat Llanuns who were culturally isolated on Timor.
On the blade-tip it resembles a bit one of my older ones (enclosed), even if it goes the other way.
I suspect yours maybe has been reshaped based on what resembled traces after holes from brass-studs and a reshaped tip (maybe broken?)?
Congratulations to a very interesting and rare variation!

Michael
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Old 10th November 2009, 10:00 PM   #5
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I thought the presence of a fuller somewhat unusual .
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Old 10th November 2009, 10:36 PM   #6
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Copied your picture in case the photobucket link disappears in future. Nice handle !
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Old 11th November 2009, 12:33 AM   #7
Gavin Nugent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Hej Per,

If you have a look in Leiden's picture database you will find resembling ones with hilts like yours collected on Timor (at www.rmv.nl)
This doesn't necessarily mean that yours has to be from Timor but that it probably is an older variation, that somehow survived longer
among the ex-pat Llanuns who were culturally isolated on Timor.
On the blade-tip it resembles a bit one of my older ones (enclosed), even if it goes the other way.
I suspect yours maybe has been reshaped based on what resembled traces after holes from brass-studs and a reshaped tip (maybe broken?)?
Congratulations to a very interesting and rare variation!

Michael


Page 71 of Zonneveld's books shows similar form. Timor it seems to be

Gav
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Old 11th November 2009, 03:24 AM   #8
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Cato in his book Moro Swords also talks about this as a rare form of kampilan.
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Old 11th November 2009, 04:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Copied your picture in case the photobucket link disappears in future. Nice handle !

Thanks Willem, i was just about to do that. Here's the other 2 images.
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Old 11th November 2009, 10:06 AM   #10
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Hi Per!!

Wellcome to this forum, I think is the best!!
Congratulations with this kampilan, think in this hilt avoid me sleep!!
Best regards
Carlos
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Old 11th November 2009, 06:03 PM   #11
Sajen
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Beautiful kamp! And also an unusual sheat.

sajen

Last edited by Sajen : 12th November 2009 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 11th November 2009, 10:34 PM   #12
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I wonder where the blade was forged; it is very different from the norm .
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Old 11th November 2009, 10:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
it is very different from the norm .



Everything about this sword is different from the norm.
The fiber on the hilt & sheath appears to be abaca, which is indigenous to the Philippines. A quick search shows the Dutch introduced it to Sumatra & the British introduced it to Borneo for rope making. I didn't see anything about Timor.
While I agree Timor is most likely the source, it seems odd the originator didn't use a local product.
Nice & unique sword.
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Old 12th November 2009, 12:00 AM   #14
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Exclamation Blade

I'm betting the blade was not forged in the Philippines .
This forging style reminds me of a Sasak-or-Sumatran klewang .

Can someone out there please show me another example of a fullered Kampilan blade with exposed pamor-like grain like this one has ?
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Old 12th November 2009, 01:24 AM   #15
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WOW! Nice Kamp. I've been looking for one like that.
Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12th November 2009, 04:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viklund_p

Been in the family since 1930 and it was said to have been old already then when my Grandmother's brother picked it up in the Philipines

(why it is different from any other handles I've seen for Kampilans on the forum)


Per



Perhaps this sword should be referred to as a Klewang from Timor. (Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of Indonesian Archipelago, fig 272, pg. 71)
If this sword made it's way up to the Philippines, it may explain the abaca on hilt & sheath. Trade between the islands is endless & if it passed through the hands of one of the lumad tribes it seems plausible to use abaca rather then the traditional use of hair, the Moro's would use.
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Old 12th November 2009, 08:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Cato in his book Moro Swords also talks about this as a rare form of kampilan.


On page 59 a resembling one from the Philippines, as Battara mentioned earlier, is commented (maybe somebody else could post a picture as I don't have a camera available at the moment?).
In Foy's book three resembling "horse-head"-kampilans from the Museum of Dresden's collection is attributed to North-Celebes.
I don't really see why Per's and Cato's necessarily should be imported swords from Timor? Or maybe I misunderstood Bill?
The reason that there are several of them in Leiden is probably more based on that the Dutch were "better" in collecting colonial artefacts in Indonesia than the Spanish were in the Philippines. If the Philippines would have been a Dutch colony I am positive that more really old Moro weapons would have been saved.
I also think it's quite obvious that it's a kampilan and have considered van Z's classifying it as a "klewang" as one of the, surprisingly few, minor errors in his book. Unless you want to classify all kampilans as belonging to the klewang-category?

Michael

Last edited by VVV : 12th November 2009 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Added Foy/Dresden
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Old 12th November 2009, 12:04 PM   #18
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[I don't really see why Per's and Cato's necessarily should be imported swords from Timor? Or maybe I misunderstood Bill?
The reason that there are several of them in Leiden is probably more based on that the Dutch were "better" in collecting colonial artefacts in Indonesia than the Spanish were in the Philippines. If the Philippines would have been a Dutch colony I am positive that more really old Moro weapons would have been saved.

Hi,

I agree that it is not likely that sword where exported from Timor.

The other way has more chance I.M.O. note that Timor played an important role in the international trade of Sandalwood ( the only island who had it)
and iron smithing was not practised on Timor for a long time.

and indeed the Dutch where the best in getting the best artefacts.... and they still are

Arjan
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Old 12th November 2009, 12:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Timor played an important role in the international trade of Sandalwood ( the only island who had it)


There is an interesting dutch book on this topic
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
There is an interesting dutch book on this topic


Yes, but mostly I don't have time to read such books, did you ?
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Old 12th November 2009, 04:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'm betting the blade was not forged in the Philippines .
This forging style reminds me of a Sasak-or-Sumatran klewang .

Can someone out there please show me another example of a fullered Kampilan blade with exposed pamor-like grain like this one has ?


Hello ??
Anyone ??
We'll just ignore the strangeness of the blade then .
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Old 12th November 2009, 04:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
On page 59 a resembling one from the Philippines, as Battara mentioned earlier, is commented
I don't really see why Per's and Cato's necessarily should be imported swords from Timor? Or maybe I misunderstood Bill?

I also think it's quite obvious that it's a kampilan and have considered van Z's classifying it as a "klewang" as one of the, surprisingly few, minor errors in his book. Unless you want to classify all kampilans as belonging to the klewang-category?

Michael



I agree, it really should be considered a kampilan. My edition of Cato shows it pg. 53, fig 33. It does not appear to be typical of Mindanao kampilans but as we see, there is always exceptions. The blade construction still is problematic for Mindanao being the place of origin.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:54 PM   #23
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Here two fast taken pics from Cato's book, page 53 and from Zonneveld page 71.
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Old 12th November 2009, 06:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Hello ??
Anyone ??
We'll just ignore the strangeness of the blade then .


The structure of the blade ( so not the shape) looks like the Celebes and Bugi swords.... but thats just a guess.....

Arjan
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Old 12th November 2009, 07:54 PM   #25
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All we can do is guess; but I do not believe that blade originated in the Philippines .
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