a strange hulu detail

Michel · 8th December 2009, 05:32 PM

Hello every one
Thank you Alan for your little story. Instructive point of view.
Now, I transmitted the complete discussion to the owner of the kris and this is a free translation of the main points of his answer:

Thank you to all of those who have examined and commented about this curious kris of mine.This kris is coming from a good Javanese kris collector who had it identified precisely with a sticker on the back of the pendok. I do not think that the handle has been modified for marketing purposes. The more I go into it, the more I think that it is one of these modification made by some Javanese related to an important events of their live or a special wish. One can find these kind of chiseling made on blades, addition made with inlay of gold, or precious stones on warangka. This is linked to mystical questions, that one has to take into account with kris. I will travel to Jogja next year and I will try to solve that little mystery.

Well gentlemen, I think we will have to wait for his return from Jogja to have his explanations.
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2009, 11:09 PM

An interesting response from your friend Michel.

If he is going to Central Jawa in the near future, I am certain that he can look forward to beginning a new phase of his education in the keris --- perhaps analogous to entry into kindergarten.

I trust he will bear in mind that no education comes free.

Alam Shah · 9th December 2009, 02:04 AM

I've not seen this type of hilt in particular, but have seen some older hilts embedded with some objects like stones, metals and other wood. Bugis, Sumatran and Peninsular hilt forms..

As far as I'm told, the reason is more talismanic in nature, according to some belief system. How far this is true, I do not know.

The object that was glued, seem to be a cabachon meant for a ring, pendant or something along that line.. which probably have some animistic value.

David · 9th December 2009, 03:40 AM

Cabochons are generally stone, not wood. While i agree that it is not unheard of to see stones, metal and wood embedded into blades and dress for talismanic reason i think what we really need to look at is the method used here. This wooden "cabochon" has been rather crudely glued to the side of this hilt, not embedded. I would think that more care and craft would be applied if there was some serious purpose to this addition.

Alam Shah · 9th December 2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Cabochons are generally stone, not wood. While i agree that it is not unheard of to see stones, metal and wood embedded into blades and dress for talismanic reason i think what we really need to look at is the method used here. This wooden "cabochon" has been rather crudely glued to the side of this hilt, not embedded. I would think that more care and craft would be applied if there was some serious purpose to this addition.

Yes David, cabochons are generally stones or minerals of some sort. However, the same shape and form are made for various woods, metals, meteorites, corals.. or what have you.. a tradition of animistic belief..

In this case, it is quite evident that the method used is less desirable. I for one would not want my piece to be like this.. however some may fancy it..

Sometimes the storyline can be facinating.. but the again, I'm buying the keris not the story..

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2009, 10:11 AM

We have a peculiar hilt.

One that does not fit a recognised style.

In Central Jawa, keris need to conform to very strict parameters. One does not have the freedom to move in whichever way one wishes and add, or subtract as one sees fit, to a very, very formal , indeed iconic, item of dress.

To my mind, any talk about mysticism or talismans & etc &etc &etc misses the point that no sane man in Central Jawa will wear a keris that makes him stick out from the mob like a broken finger wrapped in plaster. At the very least a hilt such as is on this keris would cause the wearer to become somewhat of a joke:- the person that everybody smiles at behind his back.

Javanese people conform. They conform to the dictates of the group. It is very, very uncool to be seen as somebody who does things in a different way to other people. Such an individual demonstrates that he really does not fit very well, and tends to be sidelined --- something that is almost like the Kiss of Death to a good Javanese person.

mangan nggak mangan asal kumpul --- doesn't matter whether we eat or not, as long as we're together ( broad translation)

This tells us a lot about Javanese people:- they do not want to be alone; more than this:- they fear being outside the group.

Javanese people work very hard at staying within the parameters of acceptable society.

If what I have said above is so, and virtually every text ever written on Javanese society will bear witness that what I have written is so, tell me what sort of Javanese person will take the icon that tells the world who and what he is, and do something to it that marks him as being outside the acceptable parameters of the dress code.

What we are looking at in this keris is something that is socially unacceptable in Central Javanese society.

David · 9th December 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What we are looking at in this keris is something that is socially unacceptable in Central Javanese society.

Agreed. I don't think that this particular form of keris hilt provides much if any leeway for "creative" attachments or variation.

BluErf · 9th December 2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Cabochons are generally stone, not wood. While i agree that it is not unheard of to see stones, metal and wood embedded into blades and dress for talismanic reason i think what we really need to look at is the method used here. This wooden "cabochon" has been rather crudely glued to the side of this hilt, not embedded. I would think that more care and craft would be applied if there was some serious purpose to this addition.

I know what Shahrial is referring to - I have seen rings mounted with cabochon-shaped wood here in Singapore. There are also rings mounted with a flat square piece of wood. These wood which are mounted on rings are believed to have mystical power. Perhaps we can relate that to the Spirit of Wood belief in the Malay world.

David · 9th December 2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I know what Shahrial is referring to - I have seen rings mounted with cabochon-shaped wood here in Singapore. There are also rings mounted with a flat square piece of wood. These wood which are mounted on rings are believed to have mystical power. Perhaps we can relate that to the Spirit of Wood belief in the Malay world.

Kai Wee, i don't think there is any question that mystical powers are attributed to various woods throughout that area (and indeed in other parts of the world). Ity is part of the reason particular woods are chosen to carve hilts and sheaths to begin with. But the question here is would someone in Jawa crudely adhere a piece of such wood to a hilt in a way that would stand out as and set him apart from the culture norm of the community in which he lives, a culture that is known for very strict parameters of design for such things?

BluErf · 10th December 2009, 12:46 AM

That has been explained by Alan as rather unlikely, but what Shahrial and I have mentioned is just to share what may be an acceptable practice in the Malay world. Not to say that in our part of the World, we simply glue the special piece of wood to something, but it is the significance of the wood, rather than the way it is mounted, or on what it is mounted, that counts, I guess.

8th December 2009, 05:32 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	answer from the kris owner Hello every one Thank you Alan for your little story. Instructive point of view. Now, I transmitted the complete discussion to the owner of the kris and this is a free translation of the main points of his answer: Thank you to all of those who have examined and commented about this curious kris of mine.This kris is coming from a good Javanese kris collector who had it identified precisely with a sticker on the back of the pendok. I do not think that the handle has been modified for marketing purposes. The more I go into it, the more I think that it is one of these modification made by some Javanese related to an important events of their live or a special wish. One can find these kind of chiseling made on blades, addition made with inlay of gold, or precious stones on warangka. This is linked to mystical questions, that one has to take into account with kris. I will travel to Jogja next year and I will try to solve that little mystery. Well gentlemen, I think we will have to wait for his return from Jogja to have his explanations. Regards Michel

8th December 2009, 11:09 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	An interesting response from your friend Michel. If he is going to Central Jawa in the near future, I am certain that he can look forward to beginning a new phase of his education in the keris --- perhaps analogous to entry into kindergarten. I trust he will bear in mind that no education comes free.

9th December 2009, 02:04 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	I've not seen this type of hilt in particular, but have seen some older hilts embedded with some objects like stones, metals and other wood. Bugis, Sumatran and Peninsular hilt forms.. As far as I'm told, the reason is more talismanic in nature, according to some belief system. How far this is true, I do not know. The object that was glued, seem to be a cabachon meant for a ring, pendant or something along that line.. which probably have some animistic value.

9th December 2009, 03:40 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Cabochons are generally stone, not wood. While i agree that it is not unheard of to see stones, metal and wood embedded into blades and dress for talismanic reason i think what we really need to look at is the method used here. This wooden "cabochon" has been rather crudely glued to the side of this hilt, not embedded. I would think that more care and craft would be applied if there was some serious purpose to this addition.

9th December 2009, 10:11 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	We have a peculiar hilt. One that does not fit a recognised style. In Central Jawa, keris need to conform to very strict parameters. One does not have the freedom to move in whichever way one wishes and add, or subtract as one sees fit, to a very, very formal , indeed iconic, item of dress. To my mind, any talk about mysticism or talismans & etc &etc &etc misses the point that no sane man in Central Jawa will wear a keris that makes him stick out from the mob like a broken finger wrapped in plaster. At the very least a hilt such as is on this keris would cause the wearer to become somewhat of a joke:- the person that everybody smiles at behind his back. Javanese people conform. They conform to the dictates of the group. It is very, very uncool to be seen as somebody who does things in a different way to other people. Such an individual demonstrates that he really does not fit very well, and tends to be sidelined --- something that is almost like the Kiss of Death to a good Javanese person. mangan nggak mangan asal kumpul --- doesn't matter whether we eat or not, as long as we're together ( broad translation) This tells us a lot about Javanese people:- they do not want to be alone; more than this:- they fear being outside the group. Javanese people work very hard at staying within the parameters of acceptable society. If what I have said above is so, and virtually every text ever written on Javanese society will bear witness that what I have written is so, tell me what sort of Javanese person will take the icon that tells the world who and what he is, and do something to it that marks him as being outside the acceptable parameters of the dress code. What we are looking at in this keris is something that is socially unacceptable in Central Javanese society.

10th December 2009, 12:46 AM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	That has been explained by Alan as rather unlikely, but what Shahrial and I have mentioned is just to share what may be an acceptable practice in the Malay world. Not to say that in our part of the World, we simply glue the special piece of wood to something, but it is the significance of the wood, rather than the way it is mounted, or on what it is mounted, that counts, I guess.