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#1 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2018
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Also to address your post directly ![]() To everybody else in the thread, not to be rude, but if we are to keep discussing vague aspects of indian arms research instead of the very real forms of katar that don't even have a name, could we at least try to define the kind of research/information that is to be looked for? Just a simple idea really, but it is easier to discuss/research things when you actually know what those "things" are. Vague mutterings about how "more research can be done" seem rather pointless if said research isn't even talked about, especially in a thread where the whole (original) topic is about clarifying old, obscure information. I very much appreciate Ariel's quips though ![]() |
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#2 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Hi Nihl, Very well noted on the often wandering path these threads can take. While the discussion was primarily on katars and resultant vageries of Indian arms nomenclature, this multi bladed vambrace (?) or curiously fashioned gauntlet weapon is a conundrum indeed, and deserves more review. Although of course NOT a katar, the fact that it uses what appear to be katar blades suggests it could be a version of multi bladed katar as it does have a transverse grip. As you have suggested, there do seem to be certain 'parrying' properties inherent in this curious appliance, despite the degree of actual feasibility. I had always thought of Indian sword fighting techniques as using the shield for parrying, however it does seem that various also 'innovative' Indian arms forms have been considered 'parrying' weapons. Primary example is the 'madu' , which originally was fashioned with a small shield with roebuck horns extending on either side, these later becoming opposed blades. This weapon later became the 'haladie' dual bladed weapon found in Sudan, but regarded as the 'Syrian knife' (by Stone, 1934) with Rajput origins. The idea of the sword breaker, as known in European left hand daggers seems apparently a somewhat fanciful notion, as described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, London, 1885, p.246).."...the very vicious looking and somewhat fantastic so called sword breakers represented as usual fencing weapons of the main gauche class by so many arms and armor writers never were at any time but the result of individual fantasy." While the idea of this weapon being used to catch an opponents weapon in a parry seems unlikely, or of damaging it even more unlikely......the idea of its function in parry seems incidental and not specifically intended. We know that many shields/bucklers had blades or spikes mounted in the center with the boss, and quite honestly, the transverse grip holding the shield and punching with that blade or spike has been considered as perhaps something to do with origins of the 'punch dagger' (katar)! It does seem, again looking at the bristly character of the Delhi Durbar (?) with blades projecting all over his person, there does seem to have been a certain penchant for mounting blades all over the place, in seemingly almost wildly positioned locations and configurations. If the multi bladed katars strain our imaginations, some of these bizarre innovations take it to the next level. The Persians of course even had spikes on their kulah-khud helmets! which became naturally commonly seen in India. This multi bladed weapon we are looking at, at first glance (before seeing the interior and transverse handle) looked like a vambrace (forearm armor) but in Indo-Persian nomenclature termed a 'bazuband'....the term in that parlance to describe the same type armor element. I would note here (entirely in passing) that this term 'bazuband', is also the name of a village in Razavi Khorasan province in now Iran. Any association between it and the armor item is likely doubtful. The photos are of course, our mysterious multi bladed 'katar' with the outward appearance of a bazuband. The haladie which is dual bladed 'parry' weapon, evolved from the madu which was a central shield with roebuck horns on either side. The santal, shield with spike central, and extending blades Our 'bristly' friend from Delhi . Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th June 2019 at 09:50 PM. |
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#3 |
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Location: Europe
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I think the thread has taken a turn where I will leave.
Jim could you please make the pictures a bit smaller, so the reader does not have to scroll a lot - thank you. I am aware of, that some useres of the forum are not the researcher type, as they relay only on the informationms they get from the forum, but you should try to research - it may be hard at the beginning, but it pays. |
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#4 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Jens, my apologies for the inconvenience with the photos, which I removed and will resize accordingly. Adding the photos here for previous post (edit window expired). the 'madu' which is a dual bladed weapon ostensibly for parrying, note extra blade for stabbing. the 'bristly' character from Delhi with blades everywhere the weapon we are discussing which looks like a bazuband (vambrace) but has transverse grips inside (as in gauntlet sword). The Persian kulah khud helmet with 'stabbing' point on top shield with stabbing point and blades. All illustrate the Indian penchant for innovation in combining features of various weapons for optimum combative application, or appearance of. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th June 2019 at 04:00 PM. Reason: clarification of wording and add photos for edification |
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#5 |
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Jim, dont worry, as I do know that threads tend to change the subject after some posts. You should not have removed the pictures - I am sorry I mentioned it.
My comment on research was meant in generel, as although many interesting pieces of information can be found on the forum, it is hardly research. |
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#6 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,410
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Thanks Jens, no problem. Actually I had noted the size was troublesome but had not yet gotten to resizing (it was aggravating me too as I could not get to the edit box). I have now gotten the hang of resizing so these pics should be OK. Back to business: Nihl, In the photo of this unusual katar, which is clearly from southern India (primarily the use of brass or gold metal which often signals that) it has a slightly curved blade, very much resembling a tooth. We think of the jhamdhar term (= tooth of death etc) and perhaps the symbolism carried. It also brings to mind the bagh nakh (=tigers claw) which has been mentioned in accord with this multi 'katar' bladed weapon which is mindful of a full set of claws. When the famed Hindu ruler Shivaji (1627-1680) killed Afzal Khan in 1657, it is generally held that he used a bagh nagh in one hand, and a bichwa dagger in the other. With the Indian penchant for combining weapons, we see the example of bichwa fashioned with bagh nakh blades in its handle. We then consider thoughts of these combination weapons, the katar variants and perhaps such events possibly inspiring their creation. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th June 2019 at 03:29 PM. |
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#7 |
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The discussion has been quite interesting, but did any of you notice the difference of the hilt bases of the katars shown in the first picture and in pictures like no 11 and 16?
The 'V' type of base is shown in the Hamza, so it is at least 16th century, but what about the curved base - and how old is the 'V' base? Was it invented by the Mughals? |
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