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Old 11th March 2019, 06:35 PM   #61
mross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Yes, there are beadings there.
But the question we are addressing here is not their existence ( this is beyond any argument), but their sacral meaning or absence thereof.


There is information that can be inferred from both these statements. The fact that beading is so widespread( beyond any argument; also; beads in all the great pictures in this thread) sort of points to a decorative, embellishment secular factor.
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:36 PM   #62
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Quote:
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Sino-Tibetan style of Buddhist bronze sculpture. Beginning of the 15th century.

In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:42 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Yes, there are beadings there.
But the question we are addressing here is not their existence ( this is beyond any argument), but their sacral meaning or absence thereof.

My reverence
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by mross
I'm going with #1. Simplest reason is usually the best.


The simplest reason for whom? For an atheist of the 21th century?
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:52 PM   #65
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Actually 'Occams Razor' typically does prevail in most investigative cases, but not all of course. It does remarkably depend on the character and values of the investigation, and in reality in these kinds of cases it is difficult to classify subjective meanings to a particular decoration or symbol.

It becomes very much a 'Rorschach' test in a sense as different ideas will be the perceptions of different people. I think here we are seeking any possible or likely value or tradition which might apply to beaded decoration in South India.

I don't think that such views are in any way irreverent as expressed, and what is meant is that as often expressed, often decoration is applied aesthetically and perhaps may recall certain reverent or auspicious features. I think this is actually a respectful expression of a highly regarded element or form intended to enhance.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?

Sculpture of the early 15th century, in accordance with the canons and rules of the 10th century. At a minimum, we can put aside talk about European influence.
The number of channels of Tibetan influence on the weapon style of China and Japan was very small. First of all, it is Tibetan Buddhism and its religious meaning.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:06 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
In India Buddhism has absorbed less archaic beliefs than Hinduism. Beautiful sculpture, but what else?


Naturally. Hinduism is much older religion.

And, indeed.... what else?
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:03 PM   #68
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We are all talking about the same thing, but from different points of view. It is clear that these beads are just embellishment (on weapons of 16-19th century, which we know and study). In ancient time, as I believe, real small bells could be attached to weapons, as it is sometimes found on weapons for Indian fests and performances. But we must understand that aesthetic perception is not taken from nowhere. If generations of Indian artists (from childhood to old age) had seen the three-beam star of Mercedes-Benz at all holidays and events around, it would find expression in art sooner or later.

Especially if this star had a sacral and ritual significance
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:06 PM   #69
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Although I am still waiting for the key picture in this regard to upload>>>the raised dot style border>>>>>>> I can assure you that I have the definitive artefact in the bag! A tile from the MASOUD III PALACE in GAZNI Afghanistan in precisely this style> This was found to be pre Islamic Iranian ...the building was occupied up to 1221 but sacked by the Mongolians. The publication containing the item is shown below and is a British Museum publication.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:11 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ren
Sculpture of the early 15th century, in accordance with the canons and rules of the 10th century. At a minimum, we can put aside talk about European influence.


Take your time, colleague. We will definitely hear about Alexander the Great.

... already almost... As I can see.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:22 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Naturally. Hinduism is much older religion.

And, indeed.... what else?


the differences in patterns of visual art
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:08 PM   #72
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THAT TILE . Here it is …This passage makes specific reference to these dotted/beaded border tiles as being pre Islamic Iranian and portraying mythical beasts with this very specific decoration with raised dots / bead style... in words to that effect... and being so early as to show promise in my view across the regions with perhaps transmission into the Indian Ocean areas as well as on Pilgrimages to Mecca? and into India.. Technical transfer of patterns took place as war trade and travel in the form of Pilgrimages and exploration was common as well as the bounty of winner takes all in wars... This also included the requisitioning of artisans who would frequently be transferred to the winning sides into schools of excellence royal court workshops and other centres of workmanship as a natural too ing and fro ing of expertise.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:37 PM   #73
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Taking the jewellery making situation in tandem with the revelations on ceramics here are a few pictures showing Hindu work; clearly an ancient skill and the picture of the workers in India from a sketch of a Company workshop (EIC?) in 1850 and illustrating the handed down time proven techniques obviously going back many centuries along with the ancient dies illustrated also showing the beaded edge on several of the exhibits. The dotted border arm jewellery showing the very old Hindu Deity indicates an ancient form and where that style may have easily transferred to weapons arms and armour making as previously shown at #1 etc... coupled with the respect a beaded border had already been given in pre Islamic Iranian ceramics..
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
Take your time, colleague. We will definitely hear about Alexander the Great.

You know that I am ready for this
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:39 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ren
You know that I am ready for this



Me too! Always ready to learn While it is unlikely to broadly assign the origin of the beaded. raised dot motif to any one source, it is interesting to see the uses and presence of it in various cultural and religious contexts through history.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:13 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Me too! Always ready to learn While it is unlikely to broadly assign the origin of the beaded. raised dot motif to any one source, it is interesting to see the uses and presence of it in various cultural and religious contexts through history.


Not to hijack the thread, thou this may. I think it has been firmly established that the bead "embellishment" occurs across time and and culture. In America the Native Americans have a very long history of bead-work. I think a much more interesting question is; Why the bead?
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Old 13th March 2019, 07:12 PM   #77
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At #47 the illustrated publication rattles on at great lengths about the bead and its attachment to American Indian History not to mention the value as a trade item... Trade beads travelled the globe in this role. It is reasonable to assume the raised dot or to give it the correct term dome was associated with beads thus the term beaded border... weaving its way across jewellery, arms n armour and ceramics. Doming is in fact the name of the technique for producing this beaded effect in Jewellery making across the Hindu spectrum.
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Old 13th March 2019, 07:34 PM   #78
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" Why the bead?"

I think because it all started with necklaces. We see them in virtually every archeological excavation and in every contemporary primitive culture : shell necklaces, nut necklaces, pebble necklaces, teeth necklaces... Europeans carried necklace beads to every corner of the Earth they traveled to as a "fair" exchange currency for gold, gems, spices, hides etc.
More technologically advanced non-European societies manufactured their own beads, initially likely for the same necklaces, then for prayer beads ( known in Greece since 17 century B.C.E.) and then it became just such a common prettyfying element, that it was used for many types of jewelry ( including sophisticated filigree) and any other object, including weapons.

PS. I missed Ibrahiim's post and agree with him completely. Again, I do not think we are talking about some highfalutin' sacral origins, just a practical approach at adorning our females :-)

Happy wife, - happy life.

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Old 13th March 2019, 07:36 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
At #47 the illustrated publication rattles on at great lengths about the bead and its attachment to American Indian History not to mention the value as a trade item... Trade beads travelled the globe in this role. It is reasonable to assume the raised dot or to give it the correct term dome was associated with beads thus the term beaded border... weaving its way across jewellery, arms n armour and ceramics. Doming is in fact the name of the technique for producing this beaded effect in Jewellery making across the Hindu spectrum.


Yes, but; Why beads? What is the significance of their use as trade, decoration, in some cases money? If we answer this we may be able to home in on the original question.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:29 AM   #80
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Popping in again to give my 2 cents on what's being talked about.
Personally, I'm rather satisfied with the link to old decorative forms. As uninteresting as it may be, I concede that it does make the most sense. That said, I must raise the question as to what these beads or more broadly what necklaces or similarly decorated accessories meant in old Indian culture. A purely decorative motif is one thing, but when it's applied to humans all the time one (or at least I) can't help but think at some point it was given some sort of meaning. Another question - if the beaded edge (in A&A) is such a decorative motif, why is it not seen more frequently in status pieces (the belongings of royalty and so forth) and why are these beads not separately or distinctly decorated? My memory may be failing me on the former point, so feel free to post "museum quality" examples of beaded hilts and prove me wrong, but I can't recall the last time I saw a beaded hilt with any real fancy decoration. From what I can recall most extent hilts are either undecorated metal or covered in unbroken sheets of precious metal, instead of say, being decorated with koftgari in a manner separate from the rest of the hilt (gold covered beads but silver hilt, for example) or having actual jewels inlaid in the beads. Again, maybe there are some examples out there, but I at least can't remember seeing any. I guess I'm actually not fully satisfied with the beads being decorative just yet

Also don't want to distract from the latest topic of "why beads?", but I personally have nothing to add to that.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:49 AM   #81
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I have to point out that none of the references are actually beads. They are domes ...Doming is a jewellery metalworking technique where half round shapes are produced in a cube shaped brass former so these decorative shapes although possibly thought of as beads are not... The Ceramic tile pre Islamic Iranian and the weapons and the jewellery all illustrate this technique. Heres a gold addition from Hindu Jewellery making ...
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:31 AM   #82
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A South India weapon with the raised dot form under the handguard at the throat...
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:23 PM   #83
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Did some looking, found an example from the 16th century of an Indian dagger with what looks like beading on the inside of a vegetal motif. Might just have been used to give the plants texture...
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