New purchase.

David R · 7th June 2012, 01:25 PM

I have been looking at this for some time, described as Indo-persian and associated with a scabbard that certainly looked in keeping with that description......but it didn't look quite right. Then I noticed that the scabbard was not a good fit, and most likely a Kurdish type scabbard put with it to improve saleability. It looks a well made knife anyway, 31cm overall, blade 21cm.....and it looked Phillipean. So guys, have I played a blinder, or dropped a clanger.

Dom · 7th June 2012, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I have been looking at this for some time, described as Indo-persian and associated with a scabbard that certainly looked in keeping with that description......but it didn't look quite right. Then I noticed that the scabbard was not a good fit, and most likely a Kurdish type scabbard put with it to improve saleability.

Good Day David
no comment for the knife, I dunno that type
I'm waiting with interest to know what the specialists they will decide
the scabbard it's as you said,
a Kurdish made in wood with of tooled leather and it has nothing to do with the knife
may be useful, when you will find a Kurdish jambiya with a naked blade ...

à +

Dom

Lew · 7th June 2012, 08:52 PM

David

The dagger looks like an early to mid 20th century Piece from India? Like Dom said the scabbard belongs to a Kurdish jambiya. Your dagger probably started out as some type of naval dagger

Lew

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th June 2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I have been looking at this for some time, described as Indo-persian and associated with a scabbard that certainly looked in keeping with that description......but it didn't look quite right. Then I noticed that the scabbard was not a good fit, and most likely a Kurdish type scabbard put with it to improve saleability. It looks a well made knife anyway, 31cm overall, blade 21cm.....and it looked Phillipean. So guys, have I played a blinder, or dropped a clanger.

Salaams David R~ This one is a brain teaser.. Going by the scabbard alone it is Kurd...see http://www.saradistribution.com/kurdish_jambiya.htm for an alsmost identically decorated scabbard. The hilt looks like it has Syrian influence. Blade ... I have no idea.

Regards;
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

David R · 9th June 2012, 10:13 AM

Well it arrived today, and Lew looks to have called it spot on. The scabbard is your typical Kurdish piece, a bit worn but nicely tooled, and nothing to do with the knife.
The blade is a nice one, not too rusty, still sharp though with some fine serration due to abuse or corrosion, but nothing that will not disappear with a wipe of fine ebrasive as I clean the blade. It has a good distal taper and a well crafted section. A nice blade in fact.
The guard well made and well fitted to the blade, in fact metal to metal and metal to horn fit is good all round.
The grip is horn and pot metal, neatly done, and as you said Ibrahim very like Syrian work. And engraved on one of the metal panels of the grip...INDIA 1943.
Overall it is a sound piece of work, and I think Lew called it right, a 19th C Naval dirk reworked in India in the first half of the 20thC. Not what I optimisticaly hoped for, but hopefully not overpriced for what it is.........
Since posting this I went on the Google for naval dirks, and then a link to this site!!! took me in another direction,-kirpan- the Sikh short sword or dagger. The blade seems a it good though for something purely ceremonial?

David R · 10th June 2012, 04:24 PM

This one has got interesting all of a sudden. While cleaning the blade I decided to give a quick "wipe" to the edge to get rid of the serrations which were catching the emery paper and ripping it....the file just skidded over the edge without catching. Odd, but never mind, perhaps the blade was hardened and not tempered.
Some small pitting in the blade, so I decided to give it a vinegar dip, I have some Polish pickling vinegar at 10 percent solution...lovely for a quick and dirty job. I now have what looks like a longditudinal grain and a definate edge harden...not one that follows the edge though, a straight line as indicated on the pic below.
Still not got a camera allas, but I am seeing a friend during the week who has a good one, and will try to get some done.

David R · 17th June 2012, 01:55 AM

Got some pics taken, the colour quality is not good, but I think they show what I wanted. The area of differential hardening is visible, as is what looks to be wootz type activity, also detail of the INDIA 1943 engraving. As my photographer friend pointed out, there looks to be 2 different engraving styles, and both could have been done anytime after the knives manufacture.

David R · 9th July 2012, 10:52 PM

Latest on this knife, I took it into the Armouries and we all had a look at it. The concensus is that the engraving was probably done some time after the knife was made, most probably not for the souvenier market originaly. The blade looks to be made of wootz, probably ground or forged from an old sword blade, and edge hardened for use and the point left soft so not to break too easily.
A kirpan does look to be the best contender for this, but I have a query, would this sort of knife ever be used for animal sacrifice/slaughter? Use for this would explain the trouble taken over the edge hardening.

7th June 2012, 01:25 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	New purchase. I have been looking at this for some time, described as Indo-persian and associated with a scabbard that certainly looked in keeping with that description......but it didn't look quite right. Then I noticed that the scabbard was not a good fit, and most likely a Kurdish type scabbard put with it to improve saleability. It looks a well made knife anyway, 31cm overall, blade 21cm.....and it looked Phillipean. So guys, have I played a blinder, or dropped a clanger. Attached Images Last edited by David R; 7th June 2012 at 04:31 PM.

9th June 2012, 10:13 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Well it arrived today, and Lew looks to have called it spot on. The scabbard is your typical Kurdish piece, a bit worn but nicely tooled, and nothing to do with the knife. The blade is a nice one, not too rusty, still sharp though with some fine serration due to abuse or corrosion, but nothing that will not disappear with a wipe of fine ebrasive as I clean the blade. It has a good distal taper and a well crafted section. A nice blade in fact. The guard well made and well fitted to the blade, in fact metal to metal and metal to horn fit is good all round. The grip is horn and pot metal, neatly done, and as you said Ibrahim very like Syrian work. And engraved on one of the metal panels of the grip...INDIA 1943. Overall it is a sound piece of work, and I think Lew called it right, a 19th C Naval dirk reworked in India in the first half of the 20thC. Not what I optimisticaly hoped for, but hopefully not overpriced for what it is......... Since posting this I went on the Google for naval dirks, and then a link to this site!!! took me in another direction,-kirpan- the Sikh short sword or dagger. The blade seems a it good though for something purely ceremonial? Last edited by David R; 9th June 2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Added information.

10th June 2012, 04:24 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	This one has got interesting all of a sudden. While cleaning the blade I decided to give a quick "wipe" to the edge to get rid of the serrations which were catching the emery paper and ripping it....the file just skidded over the edge without catching. Odd, but never mind, perhaps the blade was hardened and not tempered. Some small pitting in the blade, so I decided to give it a vinegar dip, I have some Polish pickling vinegar at 10 percent solution...lovely for a quick and dirty job. I now have what looks like a longditudinal grain and a definate edge harden...not one that follows the edge though, a straight line as indicated on the pic below. Still not got a camera allas, but I am seeing a friend during the week who has a good one, and will try to get some done. Attached Images

17th June 2012, 01:55 AM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Got some pics taken, the colour quality is not good, but I think they show what I wanted. The area of differential hardening is visible, as is what looks to be wootz type activity, also detail of the INDIA 1943 engraving. As my photographer friend pointed out, there looks to be 2 different engraving styles, and both could have been done anytime after the knives manufacture. Attached Images

7th June 2012, 08:52 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	David The dagger looks like an early to mid 20th century Piece from India? Like Dom said the scabbard belongs to a Kurdish jambiya. Your dagger probably started out as some type of naval dagger Lew

9th July 2012, 10:52 PM	#8
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Latest on this knife, I took it into the Armouries and we all had a look at it. The concensus is that the engraving was probably done some time after the knife was made, most probably not for the souvenier market originaly. The blade looks to be made of wootz, probably ground or forged from an old sword blade, and edge hardened for use and the point left soft so not to break too easily. A kirpan does look to be the best contender for this, but I have a query, would this sort of knife ever be used for animal sacrifice/slaughter? Use for this would explain the trouble taken over the edge hardening.