Identification rapier/sword

Panoleon · 30th May 2016, 06:06 PM

Hello everybody,

I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping to learn more about arms and armour from the period ?? - 1800.

I collect Dutch swords/sabres from the period ca. 1795 till 1900, but I'm very interested in the older material. The past years I bought some older rapiers, halberds, spontoons and a breastplate and I would like to share these with you.

I could need some help with the identification of some pieces. This is an rapier/sword I recently bought. Its a sleeper. I hope someone can tell me more about it. I don't know if it is an authentic piece, I've got some doubts.

I'm looking forward to your reactions!

CSinTX · 30th May 2016, 07:19 PM

The metal looks to be old to me. Would this style date to around 1700?

Please post up the rest of your collection. Especially polearms. We need more of them around here.

fernando · 30th May 2016, 07:27 PM

Welcome to the forum, Panoleon

.
Yes, we look forward to see items of your collection.

cornelistromp · 31st May 2016, 12:35 PM

it seems a 19th century or 20th century reproduction to me.

reason for this opinion are; the welded construction of the thumb ring, the bands on the grip I/o Turkish heads and the absence of a short ricasso @ the beginning of the blade.. furthermore, it is quite "rough" ironwork and the patination looks artificial especially @ the thumring/ricassoblock of the guard.sometimes you see slots in the shell guard to hold/break the blade of the opponent, but round holes have no function here.

it is only my single opinion, hope it helps

best,

corrado26 · 31st May 2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it seems a 19th century or 20th century reproduction to me

For me too. I think the side bows are too thin and the whole grip with its pommel might be therefore to be too light in relation the long and rather wide blade.
corrado26

Panoleon · 31st May 2016, 07:11 PM

Thanks everybody.

A pitty it isn't a authentic piece, but I'm learning a lot, and that's the basis for collecting historical arms. Luckily I allready anticipated it was a "fake" so the disapointment and financial damage, isnt that big

I will be posting some other pictures soon!

ulfberth · 3rd June 2016, 04:40 PM

Welcome to the forum Panoleon,

I agree with Jasper that the grip rings , grip and the guard is more recent, the pommel looks good and the blade looks like a 17th C blade that has been adapted to use on the composition of parts to build this sword. See picture 5 , red oval.
The sword is of the walloon type or felddegen, most of these have no ricasso it would be exceptional on a sword like this.
The grip rings are recent but on this type of sword a correct restoration or fake, some of them had rings and others mostly officers had Turkish knots.
Here are some pictures of similar types , some with rings on the grip other with Turkish knots, none of these have a ricasso.
So In my opinion your sword is a composition of parts some old and some more recent.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Panoleon · 4th June 2016, 05:01 PM

Thanks Ulfberth, for the information. Usefull things to check next time I buy a simular piece.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2016, 04:56 AM

Ulfberth and Jasper, thank you both so much for the excellent and informative assessments on this sword . What I really appreciate is the detail and reasons behind your observations, which really help us with definitive things to watch for and understanding the character of these weapons.
You guys are the best!

Jim

30th May 2016, 06:06 PM	#1
Panoleon Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30	Identification rapier/sword Hello everybody, I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping to learn more about arms and armour from the period ?? - 1800. I collect Dutch swords/sabres from the period ca. 1795 till 1900, but I'm very interested in the older material. The past years I bought some older rapiers, halberds, spontoons and a breastplate and I would like to share these with you. I could need some help with the identification of some pieces. This is an rapier/sword I recently bought. Its a sleeper. I hope someone can tell me more about it. I don't know if it is an authentic piece, I've got some doubts. I'm looking forward to your reactions! Attached Images

31st May 2016, 12:35 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	it seems a 19th century or 20th century reproduction to me. reason for this opinion are; the welded construction of the thumb ring, the bands on the grip I/o Turkish heads and the absence of a short ricasso @ the beginning of the blade.. furthermore, it is quite "rough" ironwork and the patination looks artificial especially @ the thumring/ricassoblock of the guard.sometimes you see slots in the shell guard to hold/break the blade of the opponent, but round holes have no function here. it is only my single opinion, hope it helps best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 31st May 2016 at 03:00 PM.

3rd June 2016, 04:40 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Welcome to the forum Panoleon, I agree with Jasper that the grip rings , grip and the guard is more recent, the pommel looks good and the blade looks like a 17th C blade that has been adapted to use on the composition of parts to build this sword. See picture 5 , red oval. The sword is of the walloon type or felddegen, most of these have no ricasso it would be exceptional on a sword like this. The grip rings are recent but on this type of sword a correct restoration or fake, some of them had rings and others mostly officers had Turkish knots. Here are some pictures of similar types , some with rings on the grip other with Turkish knots, none of these have a ricasso. So In my opinion your sword is a composition of parts some old and some more recent. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

30th May 2016, 07:19 PM	#2
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 232	The metal looks to be old to me. Would this style date to around 1700? Please post up the rest of your collection. Especially polearms. We need more of them around here.

30th May 2016, 07:27 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Welcome to the forum, Panoleon . Yes, we look forward to see items of your collection.

31st May 2016, 07:11 PM	#6
Panoleon Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30	Thanks everybody. A pitty it isn't a authentic piece, but I'm learning a lot, and that's the basis for collecting historical arms. Luckily I allready anticipated it was a "fake" so the disapointment and financial damage, isnt that big I will be posting some other pictures soon!

4th June 2016, 05:01 PM	#8
Panoleon Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30	Thanks Ulfberth, for the information. Usefull things to check next time I buy a simular piece.

5th June 2016, 04:56 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Ulfberth and Jasper, thank you both so much for the excellent and informative assessments on this sword . What I really appreciate is the detail and reasons behind your observations, which really help us with definitive things to watch for and understanding the character of these weapons. You guys are the best! Jim