Sword with Persian style decoration in the Topkapi Saray

Aqtai · 21st June 2005, 12:28 PM

I think this is my first ever thread! It is actually a spin-off from B.I.'s thread on the Armeria Reale Collection. I have no wish to hijack his thread with my little obsessions.

This is B.I.'s original thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=890

One of the pieces B.I. showed was a straight sword with Iranian style decoration the blade. M. Carter pointed out that it was similar to a sword in the Topkapi "Blessed Swords" collection. This is a collection of swords attributed the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. Most of the swords in this group do appear to be very early Arab blades, albeit with replacement Ottoman hilts and scabbards. However this sword and another one like it just don't seem to fit in with the rest.

Does anyone have any other suggestions about their age and place of Origin?
Are there any other swords of this type out there?

Thanks!

wolviex · 21st June 2005, 01:27 PM

Hello!

Actually I think that blades presented here are more ornamental then those from Brian's thread (more gold and - in general - the picture of Phoenix and the Dragon (?) is a little different). Those presented by Brian seems to be more common, and I have a feeling (only a feeling, because I haven't much time for longer comparisons) they're all very similiar, often rehilted in 16th, 17th or 18th centuries. In my museum there is a Pallash with Polish hilt and blade like that of Brian's, and fliping through the catalogues I saw very similiar ones. In my museum this blade is dated 15th century, Persia of course.

Regards

M.carter · 21st June 2005, 01:33 PM

I still do not have an idea why you claim that these have Persian style decoration. Anyway, I believe that sword in plate 21 is the most beautiful in the entire book.

ariel · 21st June 2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I still do not have an idea why you claim that these have Persian style decoration. Anyway, I believe that sword in plate 21 is the most beautiful in the entire book.

It the Phoenix and the Dragon: very popular in Persian decoration.

M.carter · 21st June 2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It the Phoenix and the Dragon: very popular in Persian decoration.

Dont forget that the ottomans were extremely influenced by Persian culture. Even the language of the Ottoman court was Persian I believe. That gives out a very high possibility that the decorations are indeed ottoman and not Persian.

B.I · 21st June 2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Dont forget that the ottomans were extremely influenced by Persian culture.

and the persian culture was heavily influenced by the ottomans.
dont get too caught up with history, and forget artistic syle. there is much ottoman flair in persian decoration.
michals statement about his blade being persian was not an on-the-spot opinion, but one borne from much research. i am assuming (please correct me if i'm wrong, michal) that the inventory at kracow was compiled (or ammended) by dr. zygulski, who has referenced his work from earlier known sources. whilst i am the first to fly against known sources, i wouldnt dream of doing so until i had read them first.
dr. zygulski, when referring to that particular sword, says that persian swords with the simorgh and dragon on the forte date from the 15th and 16thC, and were exported from turkey to europe by italian and german merchants (like the trading house of fugger in ausburg). he goes on to reference stocklein and blair, amongst others.
dr zaky also goes on to push the importance of persian iron works during these periods and the trade of blades throughout the islamic world.
whilst i dont agree with everything dr. zygulski has written, i do know that he is thorough in his research and doesnt throw opinions lightly. my disagreements are concerning india, and i find his statements wrong only in that i disagree with his references.
these topkapi swords are probably the most researched swords in the islamic arsenal, attracting even european arms specialists.
i'm not saying the sword is persian or ottoman, just to be wary of assuming.
also, i am pretty sure he is talking about the blade, and not the decoration.

wolviex · 21st June 2005, 02:47 PM

To be honest, I was always interested with these blades. I was wondering, if most of them are so similiar to each other, and every one is from ca. 15/16th century, they should be made in one workshop. I'm away from my resources and from the sword from my museum, so what I could find is only one picture with the sword and blade, I think similiar to that presented by Brian. There is very little about it in the text of the article where I found it, but author is refering to the steel that was probably made in one of Persian workshops, active at the end of the 15th and at the beginning of the 16th century. I think that scholars got more hints about Persian origin of these blades.

The picture is from article of prof. Carlo Panseri, Damascus Steel in legend and reality, Gladius, Tomo IV, 1965 (available also as L'acciaio di Damasco nella leggenda e nella realta, Armi Antice, 1962. Photo of this sword is also published bt C. Blair, European & American Arms)

Aqtai · 21st June 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I still do not have an idea why you claim that these have Persian style decoration. Anyway, I believe that sword in plate 21 is the most beautiful in the entire book.

I'm afraid I can't really answer this question very coherently. It's more of a "feeling" than anything else, but based on a number of things.

First there is the exuberance and liveliness of the animals, the simurghs and dragons. Representations of animals are also present in Turkish, Arab and Mughul paintings and metalwork, but they have a more restrained and staid appearence. I believe the simurgh is also a creature from Iranian folklore and finally the dragons on the swords ressemble those shown in Persian miniature paintings.

Then it is the simple fact of having representational art on a sword, Mamluk swords for example tend to have abstract arabesques and/or calligraphy, often the names and titles of sultans and amirs. I don't know enough about Ottoman and Mughul swords, so I'm not going to stick my neck out.

B.I · 21st June 2005, 01:35 PM

i agree (with everything

)
the topkapi examples are about as good as they get. the decoration is all of a particular style, and possibly redone on to the older blades. the hilts were replaced and redressed as the originals were rotten or missing. i believe yucel (from memory) was the one that described a hilt on a blade (from his first visit), which was missing by the time he published his book and done the in depth research.
the dates of these blades were all of a much older period, but neither stocklein, yucel, zaky or alexander (all well respected and had full access to the armoury) committed to anything past speculation on the dating.
the hilts were easier as the court dress, artistic style and decoration was recorded during the post medieval times.

Aqtai · 21st June 2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

...but neither stocklein, yucel, zaky or alexander (all well respected and had full access to the armoury) committed to anything past speculation on the dating...

Probably very wise considering these swords status as sacred relics...

What about the sword you posted from the Armeria Reale, is there a date or place of origin listed for that one?

wolviex · 22nd June 2005, 09:32 PM

Hello!

It is always as you need something you just can’t find it. I thought I will be able to find more photos of blades presenting the fight of the Phoenix with the Dragon.

First sword (pallash) is from my Museum. This presented by Brian above is indeed in Wawel castle collection. My is rehilted in 18th century. Sorry for not the best pictures, but I had to get into the display case to made them, while the first one is from catalogue. I couldn’t made the entire blade, but on one of the pictures you’ll find there is an gold inscription running down below the fight scene.

Second sword is scanned from “Blankwaffen” by Heribert Seitz. It is from Bayerisches National Museum in Munchen (Munich), hilt is from 17th century, blade “Persian, probably from the 15th century”.

And the third sword , and actually only the blade, while the handle was not shown, but this is most probably the same sword as the second one, was published in “Prunkwaffen” by Johannes Schobel. It is most interesting, while he gave more space for description. And, I want to point it out, just as in my Museum’s example, you can see an inscription on the blade. And Author wrote about this sabre, in short: “Blade is double edged, with Arabic inscription and Persian writhen foliate decoration. The Arabic inscription [this is hard, text is in German, so it won’t be literally meaning, sorry for any mistakes and nonsenses

] ‘Oh! Sword you can belittle (sic?!) the Gods/Deities. The Garden of Victory spreads through your water. You are in blood–relation with Ali’s Sword’ (excerpt)
Blades of this type are usually described as Mongolian from 14-15th centuries.
Persian work with Mongolian influence, beginning of the 15th century”.

For those who are laughing

because of my translation, here is German translation of the Arabian inscription. If there will be any hints, please let me know, maybe I will be able to edit my translation and rescue my honour

: “O Schwert, mögen durch dich der Götzenbilder sich verringern! Möge der Garten des Siegs durch dein Wasser gedaihen! Möge dein Bluntsverwandter das Schwert Alis sein!“

Regards!

Aqtai · 22nd June 2005, 09:54 PM

Beautiful pictures Wolviex. You mentioned these are sabres, so I'm guessing that these blades, unlike the Topkapi swords, are not straight. Judging by the number of examples, this style of decoration however appears to be relatively common.

About the writing, I can't read Persian, but I can read Arabic. I don't understand that inscription, so I'm guessing it is not Arabic.

The style of the script is Nasta'liq, a style that was used mainly in Iran and India.

Early Arabic inscriptions, up until the 12th century, use a script (the arabic word for script is khatt) called Kufi. Many of the "Blessed swords" do have Kufi inscriptions on them. In the late 12th century more flowing styles of script like naskh became fashionable. Mamluk art usually used another script called thuluth, although kufi was still occasionally used during the mamluk period, and the Ottomans tended to prefer a script called diwani.

wolviex · 22nd June 2005, 10:20 PM

SWORDS!! Of course they're swords! THEY'RE STRAIGHT - as a stick

.

I'll try to make edit in my last post to not mislead others!!

(stupid me)

They called it Arabic, and even translated it, so I don't know what's wrong. Maybe the translation was made by second person, and author wrongly called this script as Arabic?

B.I · 23rd June 2005, 02:28 AM

yes, michal, you dont fail to impress!
absolutely wonderful, especially the second sword.
i spent the day in a friends library, which is pretty much complete in all aspects of arms (where mine tends to concentrate on a very small section).
i found some interesting things, including a full article written on these sword blades by a respected academic, and hints of another which i ran out of time before i located it.
cant tell more as i was on something else at the time, but will have the articles sent to me soon. sorry, in my rush i didnt even take details as i knew i would have them at my leisure soon.
again, thank you michal for sharing your access to such fabulous pieces.

Shompola · 27th June 2005, 09:22 PM

The inscription on the blade on the last picture says in persian : Ey tigh keh az to khasm e din kam bada

Roughly it means You/oh, sword/blade who fade the enemies of the religion

21st June 2005, 12:28 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Sword with Persian style decoration in the Topkapi Saray I think this is my first ever thread! It is actually a spin-off from B.I.'s thread on the Armeria Reale Collection. I have no wish to hijack his thread with my little obsessions. This is B.I.'s original thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=890 One of the pieces B.I. showed was a straight sword with Iranian style decoration the blade. M. Carter pointed out that it was similar to a sword in the Topkapi "Blessed Swords" collection. This is a collection of swords attributed the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. Most of the swords in this group do appear to be very early Arab blades, albeit with replacement Ottoman hilts and scabbards. However this sword and another one like it just don't seem to fit in with the rest. Does anyone have any other suggestions about their age and place of Origin? Are there any other swords of this type out there? Thanks!

21st June 2005, 02:47 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	To be honest, I was always interested with these blades. I was wondering, if most of them are so similiar to each other, and every one is from ca. 15/16th century, they should be made in one workshop. I'm away from my resources and from the sword from my museum, so what I could find is only one picture with the sword and blade, I think similiar to that presented by Brian. There is very little about it in the text of the article where I found it, but author is refering to the steel that was probably made in one of Persian workshops, active at the end of the 15th and at the beginning of the 16th century. I think that scholars got more hints about Persian origin of these blades. The picture is from article of prof. Carlo Panseri, Damascus Steel in legend and reality, Gladius, Tomo IV, 1965 (available also as L'acciaio di Damasco nella leggenda e nella realta, Armi Antice, 1962. Photo of this sword is also published bt C. Blair, European & American Arms) Attached Images

22nd June 2005, 09:32 PM	#11
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	another examples Hello! It is always as you need something you just can’t find it. I thought I will be able to find more photos of blades presenting the fight of the Phoenix with the Dragon. First sword (pallash) is from my Museum. This presented by Brian above is indeed in Wawel castle collection. My is rehilted in 18th century. Sorry for not the best pictures, but I had to get into the display case to made them, while the first one is from catalogue. I couldn’t made the entire blade, but on one of the pictures you’ll find there is an gold inscription running down below the fight scene. Second sword is scanned from “Blankwaffen” by Heribert Seitz. It is from Bayerisches National Museum in Munchen (Munich), hilt is from 17th century, blade “Persian, probably from the 15th century”. And the third sword , and actually only the blade, while the handle was not shown, but this is most probably the same sword as the second one, was published in “Prunkwaffen” by Johannes Schobel. It is most interesting, while he gave more space for description. And, I want to point it out, just as in my Museum’s example, you can see an inscription on the blade. And Author wrote about this sabre, in short: “Blade is double edged, with Arabic inscription and Persian writhen foliate decoration. The Arabic inscription [this is hard, text is in German, so it won’t be literally meaning, sorry for any mistakes and nonsenses ] ‘Oh! Sword you can belittle (sic?!) the Gods/Deities. The Garden of Victory spreads through your water. You are in blood–relation with Ali’s Sword’ (excerpt) Blades of this type are usually described as Mongolian from 14-15th centuries. Persian work with Mongolian influence, beginning of the 15th century”. For those who are laughing because of my translation, here is German translation of the Arabian inscription. If there will be any hints, please let me know, maybe I will be able to edit my translation and rescue my honour : “O Schwert, mögen durch dich der Götzenbilder sich verringern! Möge der Garten des Siegs durch dein Wasser gedaihen! Möge dein Bluntsverwandter das Schwert Alis sein!“ Regards! Attached Images Last edited by wolviex; 22nd June 2005 at 10:22 PM.

22nd June 2005, 09:54 PM	#12
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Beautiful pictures Wolviex. You mentioned these are sabres, so I'm guessing that these blades, unlike the Topkapi swords, are not straight. Judging by the number of examples, this style of decoration however appears to be relatively common. About the writing, I can't read Persian, but I can read Arabic. I don't understand that inscription, so I'm guessing it is not Arabic. The style of the script is Nasta'liq, a style that was used mainly in Iran and India. Early Arabic inscriptions, up until the 12th century, use a script (the arabic word for script is khatt) called Kufi. Many of the "Blessed swords" do have Kufi inscriptions on them. In the late 12th century more flowing styles of script like naskh became fashionable. Mamluk art usually used another script called thuluth, although kufi was still occasionally used during the mamluk period, and the Ottomans tended to prefer a script called diwani. Last edited by Aqtai; 22nd June 2005 at 10:32 PM.

21st June 2005, 01:27 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello! Actually I think that blades presented here are more ornamental then those from Brian's thread (more gold and - in general - the picture of Phoenix and the Dragon (?) is a little different). Those presented by Brian seems to be more common, and I have a feeling (only a feeling, because I haven't much time for longer comparisons) they're all very similiar, often rehilted in 16th, 17th or 18th centuries. In my museum there is a Pallash with Polish hilt and blade like that of Brian's, and fliping through the catalogues I saw very similiar ones. In my museum this blade is dated 15th century, Persia of course. Regards

21st June 2005, 01:33 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	I still do not have an idea why you claim that these have Persian style decoration. Anyway, I believe that sword in plate 21 is the most beautiful in the entire book.

21st June 2005, 01:35 PM	#9
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i agree (with everything ) the topkapi examples are about as good as they get. the decoration is all of a particular style, and possibly redone on to the older blades. the hilts were replaced and redressed as the originals were rotten or missing. i believe yucel (from memory) was the one that described a hilt on a blade (from his first visit), which was missing by the time he published his book and done the in depth research. the dates of these blades were all of a much older period, but neither stocklein, yucel, zaky or alexander (all well respected and had full access to the armoury) committed to anything past speculation on the dating. the hilts were easier as the court dress, artistic style and decoration was recorded during the post medieval times.

22nd June 2005, 10:20 PM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	SWORDS!! Of course they're swords! THEY'RE STRAIGHT - as a stick . I'll try to make edit in my last post to not mislead others!! (stupid me) They called it Arabic, and even translated it, so I don't know what's wrong. Maybe the translation was made by second person, and author wrongly called this script as Arabic?

23rd June 2005, 02:28 AM	#14
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	yes, michal, you dont fail to impress! absolutely wonderful, especially the second sword. i spent the day in a friends library, which is pretty much complete in all aspects of arms (where mine tends to concentrate on a very small section). i found some interesting things, including a full article written on these sword blades by a respected academic, and hints of another which i ran out of time before i located it. cant tell more as i was on something else at the time, but will have the articles sent to me soon. sorry, in my rush i didnt even take details as i knew i would have them at my leisure soon. again, thank you michal for sharing your access to such fabulous pieces.

27th June 2005, 09:22 PM	#15
Shompola Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1	The inscription on the blade on the last picture says in persian : Ey tigh keh az to khasm e din kam bada Roughly it means You/oh, sword/blade who fade the enemies of the religion