An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment

CharlesS · 15th December 2013, 03:21 PM

This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences.

There are several unique features of the chiseling:

1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic!

2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif???

The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time.

Can anyone translate the cartouche???

I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs.

ariel · 15th December 2013, 04:01 PM

Strangely, it reminds me of Georgian decoration: central motif ( here it is a round flower) surrounded by vine-ey background and, -especially, - a bird ( here 2 of them) in the middle of the quillon block.
And, at the same time, Georgian handles were not made of brass, the quillons are different, the pommel is not the same....

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th December 2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences.

There are several unique features of the chiseling:

1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic!

2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif???

The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time.

Can anyone translate the cartouche???

I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs.

Salaams CharlesS~ I think the Indian weapon is an Indian Shamshiir. But ! Is it Indian?

I think is says...

Top Cartouche "Sultan Basha"

Lower Cartouche "Yaa Ali"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AJ1356 · 16th December 2013, 02:20 PM

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th December 2013, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AhmedH · 17th December 2013, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've tried my best to read the inscriptions on the top bukhariyya, but couldn't understand it. Yes, the lower bukhariyya has the famous Shi'ite call: "Ya Ali"; although the way it is written appears to be very weird for me. I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but believe me, I've tried my best.

One thing that I could deduce: The inscription in the top bukhariyya may not be in Arabic; but rather Persian, Urdu, or some other language.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

CharlesS · 17th December 2013, 08:12 PM

Thanks so much for your attempts at help here guys! Most appreciated. I would not be surprised at all if the script was Urdu....I would be a little more surprised if it were Farsi.

The construction of the sword seems Indian through and through to me. It is the decorative motifs that confound me.

AhmedH · 19th December 2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've posted the latest photo CharlesS submitted and sent it to a guy who speaks Urdu. Here was his answer:

" I have tried very hard to decipher the Arabic/Farsi/Urdu script but cannot go beyond what you have read in the lower part یا علی (Ya Ali) beyond با تا I cannot make out the rest . I think it is Farsi."

Therefore, it appears to be "Bata" instead of "Basha" or "Pasha".

According to him, the script maybe in Farsi; rather than being in Urdu.

Hope this helps...I'm really sorry for my limitations regarding this issue.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

15th December 2013, 03:21 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences. There are several unique features of the chiseling: 1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic! 2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif??? The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time. Can anyone translate the cartouche??? I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 15th December 2013 at 04:24 PM.

15th December 2013, 04:01 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Strangely, it reminds me of Georgian decoration: central motif ( here it is a round flower) surrounded by vine-ey background and, -especially, - a bird ( here 2 of them) in the middle of the quillon block. And, at the same time, Georgian handles were not made of brass, the quillons are different, the pommel is not the same....

16th December 2013, 02:20 PM	#4
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original. The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

17th December 2013, 08:12 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks so much for your attempts at help here guys! Most appreciated. I would not be surprised at all if the script was Urdu....I would be a little more surprised if it were Farsi. The construction of the sword seems Indian through and through to me. It is the decorative motifs that confound me.