Meteorite Dagger?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

It is my understanding that the cause of pamor is due to the “layers” of nickel and iron (and steel). When stained, the solution of arsenic and lime juice turns the iron black and the nickel remains basically unstained. When creating a mixture of “iron” and meteorite, what happens to the nickel in the process… does it “mix” or does it tend to separate and create “bands” of nickel in the iron (making its own pamor)?

While nickel is certainly used as a pamor material and gives quite a better contrast i just wanted to remind everyone once again of the work of Professor Jerzy Piaskowski who determined that many old keris may have used no nickel whatsoever and achieved pamor contrast through the use of different types of iron that i believe may have had different phosphorous levels that create the contrast. I think that perhaps Alan Maisey can address your last question (certainly more accurately than i could ) and perhaps follow up a little on Piaskowski's work with keris materials.

[BSMStar]

You are absolutely correct nechesh... my fault for being focused on the meteorite/nickel iron subject, dealing with the knife that Jeff made. My Pajajaran is nickel "free" and made of contrasting iron alloys. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Originally Posted by BSMStar

With the Keris, I have always wondered… how did the method of folding two alloys come into being? The very early Keris did not contain nickel, and relied on two alloys of iron.

A quote from earlier in the thread... to prove I am getting senile.... at least in my focus.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

A quote from earlier in the thread... to prove I am getting senile.... at least in my focus.

LOL!

[A. G. Maisey]

The most common method of making pamor with nickel is to take a paper thin piece of nickel, sandwich it between two layers of iron and forge weld it. You take four of these little billets and weld them together, then you forge out and double over and weld until you have 128 nominal layers of nickel.
In the finished pamor the nickel layers are quite distinct. The nickel does not melt into the iron, it stays as distinct layers of material. Probably the easiest way to think of the mix of nickel and iron, is that the iron acts as "glue" to hold the layers of nickel together.Accordingly, if you can find a relatively wide band of nickel, you have a pretty large area that could be tested.

I`m sorry, I cannot expand further on Prof Jerzy Piaskowski's work. It is highly technical, and his two largest papers have not yet been published. I am only aware of the content because I have worked with him advising on strictly keris and cultural matters, since about 1988.

[BSMStar]

I understand Alan, and I have not read Prof Piaskowski's work.

My question is regarding the iron-nickel alloys in the meteorite material (my apology for not beening clear).

In Iron Meteorites, there are two major alloys of iron-nickel:

Kamacite: a solid solution of around 7.5% nickel.
Taenite: a solid solution of more than 25 percent nickel.

There are also the possibilities of having Iron Carbides - solid solutions of Fe, Ni & Co with Carbon, such as Cohenite and Haxonite. But let us ignore those for the moment. If I recall, iron and nickel are always alloyed together unless in oxide or silicate form – in meteorites.

My question was, what happens to these concentrations of iron-nickel on forging and folding? Do they leave a pattern that would be pamor like? Or do they simply mix and are indistinguishable (in the iron and meteorite mix- if you were to make a blade from this material alone)?

[Jeff Pringle]

When creating a mixture of “iron” and meteorite, what happens to the nickel in the process… does it “mix” or does it tend to separate and create “bands” of nickel in the iron (making its own pamor)?

The acid in the lime juice will etch the layers with nickel less than the ones without, and the arsenic/lime will darken them less; so the nickel-bearing layers will stand out and be lighter and more glossy (although the polish will depend on abrasives and method of their use, too). Phosphorus works the same way, the different alloys are effected by the acid differently. I have never done lime juice and arsenic to a differential phosphorus blade, but with regular etching solutions phosphorus iron etches less deeply and lighter in color, but does not retain its polish like steel with nickel or chrome.

How uniformly the nickel becomes mixed with the other metal depends on how it is worked, how many times the two metals get folded together. At eight folds, the narrowness of the layers and solid-state diffusion are starting to level out the appearance, at least to the naked eye (how uniform it will look also depends on how different the alloys are and how much those elements like to diffuse (Ni does not like to move very fast), and how hot the smith likes to work the metal). It takes ten to twelve folds to really get things smoothed out under magnification. The patterned panels on the knife I posted were folded four times, the base metal was folded eight before going into the mix. The base metal is much more uniform in between the nickel layers, where it got the extra folds. At four folds, the nickel layers are still really obvious, but the meteorite I used welded up so well I didn’t have to fold it many times to get clean metal, so the bright layers are undiluted 6% nickel meteorite.

If a smith were mixing meteorite & plain steel to make the bright layers in the pamor, he would fold it until it was visually uniform (from a foot or two away, at least - otherwise the patterning wouldn't stand out), but there would still be some amount of variation in the metal, quite a lot under the microscope.

Testing the brighter lines in pamor (or the brighter lines within the brighter layers) would get you higher percentage of meteorite material, if it was used.

To get a real big difference in color, I think you need at least 2-3 percent nickel (perhaps less if you’re mixing it with high P metal?), and the Prambanan meteorite has 10% Ni (28.3 ppm Ga, 190 ppm Ge, 4.2 ppm Ir) – I’ll take a wild guess and say the old timers would mix one part meteorite with four or five parts domestic metal, unless the keris was special, when they might bump it up to 33% -50% for the extra contrast that would impart. You’d probably see some degree of contrast all the way down to a one in ten ratio.

[A. G. Maisey]

I can only talk facts about the meteoritic material I myself have handled.

I welded small pieces of Arizona material together, then folded and welded at least seven times, but probably more likely nine or ten times, to make small, solid, clean billets of material that was 100% meteoritic material.

The small solid block of meteoritic material was then forged out to the point where it was starting to separate, which means it was about as thick as a piece of newspaper.

A piece was cut off and put between two pieces of iron about half inch thick.

Four of these pieces were made, then these four pieces welded together, forged out and folded five times to produce 128 nominal layers of the meteoritic material. However, don`t forget that this meteoritic material had---let us say---nine folds in it before it started to be worked as pamor, and there were four layers of it before the first pamor fold was done. That means the meteoritic material itself finished up as 1152 nominal layers.

At this level of layering, the nickelous parts of the original meteoritic material would have lost a lot of the ferric component. It was thin to begin with, and with every weld heat some ferric component would have been lost. If you look at the finished pamor under magnification it is difficult to see if the bright nickelous parts of this pamor have any joints at all.

From an academic point of view I have absolutely no idea what happens with the meteoritic material. From a practical point of view what I can see is an effect that looks very similar to plain, straight nickel.