Klewang Sumatra

KuKulzA28 · 22nd August 2010, 11:55 PM

Hello guys, been awhile since I've posted here with anything meaningful to contribute. I've been saving up for this baby for awhile now. It is my favorite style of klewang from Sumatra, and it seems to be in good condition. It definitely feels well-made and deadly. It's not the silver ones that I've seen on sale here and there. The pamor blade is slightly nicked here and there and the carved grip laid onto the handle has cracks. The pommel lacks the usual floral carvings. I was told that this piece is definitely more than 100 years old, but not sure how much older than that. The blade was blackened back in 1999 the traditional way with acids, and it was secured back into the handle with resin this year. Any restoration was done within the past decade I think.

Anyone know the ethnic and geographic origin of these blades and what their name would be? I have searched this forum but I haven't found the specific name of this klewang style. I know very little about this style of blade, I just like the look and feel of it.

EDIT: I will try to take better pictures tomorrow

Battara · 23rd August 2010, 12:46 AM

Don't know if this will be helpful but the metals on the hilt appear to be white nickel-copper and copper.

Rick · 23rd August 2010, 01:43 AM

Many of these are found on Lombok also .

My example was sourced from there .

Whether it's Sasak or Sumatran is probably anyone's guess (IMO).

One of the sharpest swords I own .

KuKulzA28 · 23rd August 2010, 02:06 AM

Thanks Battara

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Many of these are found on Lombok also .

My example was sourced from there .

Whether it's Sasak or Sumatran is probably anyone's guess (IMO).

One of the sharpest swords I own .

It's Sumatran I'm pretty sure, but the similarity of Lombok pedangs and klewangs IS very interesting

KuKulzA28 · 23rd August 2010, 05:21 AM

Rick if ya don't mind, feel free to share a picture of your klewang!

....
some other people's examples of this klewang
(the blade shape doesn't seem to appear on lombok though everything else about it seems to)

could only find these pictures right now
found others, but they were for sale on websites, can't link to those

EriksEdge (recently sold, so it's OK)

CharlesS (here's his thread)

Rick · 23rd August 2010, 02:56 PM

A different point style; but the same blade construction as yours .
I have had this for at least 10 years; it was sourced from Lombok .

KuKulzA28 · 23rd August 2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A different point style; but the same blade construction as yours .
I have had this for at least 10 years; it was sourced from Lombok .

Interesting... looks like a pedang sabet of sorts

does anyone know how to tell the difference between a Lombok and these Sumatran blades?

KuKulzA28 · 9th September 2010, 05:21 AM

Anyone else have anything to add to this?

I am very curious about these blades, and perhaps others are as well...

Ron Anderson · 9th September 2010, 08:54 AM

Hi

I have one of these from Lombok. I also have several hilts (from chisels) from Lombok.

What I've noticed is there a high predominance of hilts with buffalo horn on Lombok klewangs. I suspect horn hilts are more likely to come from Sumatra.

By and large these klewangs are not that uncommon in Australia, but most of them have wooden hilts, often the dragon head carved style seen above. Whenever I've come across a piece described as a Lombok Island klewang, it's usually a horn hilt. The quality of the silver on the rest of the hilt often seems to be better too.

I have about 20 chisels from Lombok with horn hilts and I just get the impression that they are more prone to use horn and that the quality of the horn carving is pretty damn good.

Ron

Ron Anderson · 9th September 2010, 08:56 AM

Correction: horn hilts are more likely to be Lombok. That's my experience.

Sajen · 9th September 2010, 04:09 PM

This is my example with a very fine pamor blade. I think that it is from Lombok but I am not sure. Sorry for the picture quality, fast taken at a cloudy day.

Sajen · 9th September 2010, 04:34 PM

Here some pics from the blade.

KuKulzA28 · 9th September 2010, 10:50 PM

Wow thats a really nice example!

I'm wondering, how can these very similar styles of klewang be from both Sumatra AND Lombok? What ethnic group are they from? Why are their styles sooo similar? I'm not an expert AT ALL on Indonesian weapons, so I'm somewhat lost...

Ron Anderson · 10th September 2010, 02:31 AM

They are from different island cultures, but there are similarities among all the islands.

The Lombok Islanders are known as Sassak people. Lombok is right next to Bali.

They tend to have quite an evolved artistic style compared to other places in the region. Generally, their artefacts are quite distinct and interesting. But their klewangs looks just like other klewangs. However, as I said, I think they tend be made of better materials, and the workmanship seems to be better.

KuKulzA28 · 25th September 2010, 09:11 AM

Sorry for the belated response! Thank you for that, my knowledge of Indonesian weaponry is limited. I didn't know if every group on every island had their own distinctive blades, or if there were various trends and influences from foreign cultures... and it seems there's just a beautiful mix of both indigenous design and centuries of influences and cross-pollinization of ideas and styles... making it harder and even more interesting to study Indonesian weapons

this style of klewang has really grown on me. The balance and heft is great and the aesthetics are elegant. I feel like a skilled pendekar could slash through a 100 men with one of these...

Rick · 25th September 2010, 03:41 PM

My pamor construction is the same style as your's Sajen .

My example may well be the sharpest sword I have .
A mere flick of the wrist and you can turn a pool noodle into little discs .

These would have been quite effective at close quarters .

Sajen · 25th September 2010, 04:02 PM

Hello Rick, so is my guess that my one is from Lombok maybe correct. The blade is one of the finest pamor blades I have.

Rick · 25th September 2010, 04:39 PM

I'm in the same boat as you Sajen .

I couldn't say for sure .

KuKulzA28 · 1st November 2010, 05:23 AM

Hello! I have another question...

Does anyone happen to know Indonesian smiths who make klewangs in this style?

I know of 5 Indonesian knife maker/vendors and they all, for whatever reason, wouldn't be able to do this job... whether because they require a minimum number of pieces for a custom order, or because they specialize in small knives, or because they would charge too much... I'm not too knowledgeable about local smiths in Indonesia and I was wondering if any of you have any idea of Sumatran or Lombok smiths who could make this style of klewang/pedang... or a smith who's good at it...

If it is against forum rules to mention vendors and makers in a post...
Could someone (who knows and is willing to share) PM me regarding information on local smiths?

The balance of this blade, the weight, the handling, the aesthetics - it's just really pleasing to me. I'm used to tip-heavy machete-types that are practical and can definitely mess someone up, but this klewang is just fast and deadly... would be great for slashing through underbrush (which kills the wrist when doing it for a long time with a heavy 'chete) and slicing flesh. I'd definitely like to have one newly made for me... but if no one makes these anymore, perhaps I will sell my antique and "forget about it".

Thanks guys!

KuKulzA28 · 28th May 2011, 11:29 PM

Perhaps it is inappropriate to resurrect an old thread..

But I think I am fallin' in love with these Sumatran/Sassak style blades...

I don't know if it's a good thing...

Gavin Nugent · 29th May 2011, 01:03 AM

Nothing wrong with falling in love with them, it is a good thing and nothing wrong with that. The study material offers a lot when in hand and there is little info to fall back on so exacting research might be considered ground breaking

I have always found them a pleasure to handle and view.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 29th May 2011, 02:41 AM

Thanks Gav for the reassurance and enabling

Anyone know anything about the pedang, top of the 3? It has this fuller that goes all the way to the false edge. Usually they look like pedang-sabet like the 2nd one (sometimes with fullers), or they're heavier golok or klewang types, or the katana-like ones as seen 3rd down.

I never saw a blade like the one up top so, since it was a good deal, I snatched it up.

Rick · 29th May 2011, 03:59 PM

I never saw a pommel like the one at the bottom of the picture on one of these swords .

I'm guessing it is a found, natural shape that resembles the traditional form .
There could be some talismanic value to having one of these free form hilts .

I believe they are rare and highly prized in the world of keris .

KuKulzA28 · 29th May 2011, 04:39 PM

I too have never seen another one like it, where it is the shape of the typical pommel (Makara?) but without the carvings... so because of that and because it has my favorite Indonesian pedang blade shape (I call "Katana-tip"), I had to get it. Rick, would you mind explaining to me why the uncarved is so special? To me, it would seem like carved takes more work than uncarved, so if uncarved was better, wouldn't you see more of those??

Yea, novice questions

Rick · 29th May 2011, 04:49 PM

I can't explain, I can guess; these 'natural' forms that mimic hilt pommels and keris handles come from the 'natural' world not from the hand of man .

That makes them special .

KuKulzA28 · 29th May 2011, 08:36 PM

Perhaps, though the resemblance is too much - I think someone simply shaped buffalo horn into the look of the typical pommel and then did not proceed to make the traditional carvings, but I don't know for sure.

These blades were definitely big in Lombok from the little I've read, and apparently found in central/south Sumatra... I wonder what factors prompted their being readily adopted in Sumatra?? ...versus Borneo and Java which seem to have had their own endemic parangs and pedangs already well-established. I could be wrong about my assumptions however, I am pretty new to Indonesian weapons.

Sumatran weapons are the most fascinating to me, but there seems to be the least information on them... aside from the occasional Batak place, piso podang, or Acehnese collection...

Gavin Nugent · 29th May 2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I never saw a pommel like the one at the bottom of the picture on one of these swords .

I'm guessing it is a found, natural shape that resembles the traditional form .
There could be some talismanic value to having one of these free form hilts .

I believe they are rare and highly prized in the world of keris .

The hilt To me is a dead ringer for the Makara seen on the Sosun Patta I have, the others look to me in profile to be the cockatoo. I'd suggest the lower one shows more Hindu influence around these Islands. I'd also suggest they are carved this way....

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 1st June 2011, 07:12 PM

Hindu influence? What makes you say that?

I'm not yet very good at differentiating different stylistic differences that could be attributed to Islamic, Hindu, or local beliefs...

Gavin Nugent · 2nd June 2011, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Hindu influence? What makes you say that?

I'm not yet very good at differentiating different stylistic differences that could be attributed to Islamic, Hindu, or local beliefs...

Vinny,

I note it because of the hilt shape referred to is to me that of the Makara;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_(Hindu_mythology)

See also the image attached.

This text is translated text from Wiki;

"Before the entry of Islam, the people who inhabit the island of Lombok in a row of belief animism , dynamism and Hindu"

I understand aspects of the old Hindu culture is still present in places and more so I would suggest in the age of these swords.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 2nd June 2011, 03:35 PM

I see... I wonder why they chose Makara as a popular motif on swords, perhaps because of the fierceness of crocodiles... Did the coming and popularity of Islam start to change the Hindu and animist stylistic elements of the weapons? I've heard that Islamic beliefs forbid the carving of idols, animals, etc. on hilt - not sure if it's true.

The sword hilt you just provided an image for - is that a very reduced and stylized form of Makara?

22nd August 2010, 11:55 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Klewang Sumatra Hello guys, been awhile since I've posted here with anything meaningful to contribute. I've been saving up for this baby for awhile now. It is my favorite style of klewang from Sumatra, and it seems to be in good condition. It definitely feels well-made and deadly. It's not the silver ones that I've seen on sale here and there. The pamor blade is slightly nicked here and there and the carved grip laid onto the handle has cracks. The pommel lacks the usual floral carvings. I was told that this piece is definitely more than 100 years old, but not sure how much older than that. The blade was blackened back in 1999 the traditional way with acids, and it was secured back into the handle with resin this year. Any restoration was done within the past decade I think. Anyone know the ethnic and geographic origin of these blades and what their name would be? I have searched this forum but I haven't found the specific name of this klewang style. I know very little about this style of blade, I just like the look and feel of it. EDIT: I will try to take better pictures tomorrow Last edited by KuKulzA28; 23rd August 2010 at 12:16 AM.

23rd August 2010, 02:56 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	A different point style; but the same blade construction as yours . I have had this for at least 10 years; it was sourced from Lombok . Attached Images

9th September 2010, 04:09 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,488	This is my example with a very fine pamor blade. I think that it is from Lombok but I am not sure. Sorry for the picture quality, fast taken at a cloudy day. Attached Images

9th September 2010, 04:34 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,488	Here some pics from the blade. Attached Images

1st November 2010, 05:23 AM	#19
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	...yet another question Hello! I have another question... Does anyone happen to know Indonesian smiths who make klewangs in this style? I know of 5 Indonesian knife maker/vendors and they all, for whatever reason, wouldn't be able to do this job... whether because they require a minimum number of pieces for a custom order, or because they specialize in small knives, or because they would charge too much... I'm not too knowledgeable about local smiths in Indonesia and I was wondering if any of you have any idea of Sumatran or Lombok smiths who could make this style of klewang/pedang... or a smith who's good at it... If it is against forum rules to mention vendors and makers in a post... Could someone (who knows and is willing to share) PM me regarding information on local smiths? The balance of this blade, the weight, the handling, the aesthetics - it's just really pleasing to me. I'm used to tip-heavy machete-types that are practical and can definitely mess someone up, but this klewang is just fast and deadly... would be great for slashing through underbrush (which kills the wrist when doing it for a long time with a heavy 'chete) and slicing flesh. I'd definitely like to have one newly made for me... but if no one makes these anymore, perhaps I will sell my antique and "forget about it". Thanks guys!

23rd August 2010, 12:46 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Don't know if this will be helpful but the metals on the hilt appear to be white nickel-copper and copper.

23rd August 2010, 01:43 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Many of these are found on Lombok also . My example was sourced from there . Whether it's Sasak or Sumatran is probably anyone's guess (IMO). One of the sharpest swords I own .

23rd August 2010, 05:21 AM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Rick if ya don't mind, feel free to share a picture of your klewang! .... some other people's examples of this klewang (the blade shape doesn't seem to appear on lombok though everything else about it seems to) could only find these pictures right now found others, but they were for sale on websites, can't link to those EriksEdge (recently sold, so it's OK) CharlesS (here's his thread)

9th September 2010, 05:21 AM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Anyone else have anything to add to this? I am very curious about these blades, and perhaps others are as well...

9th September 2010, 08:54 AM	#9
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi I have one of these from Lombok. I also have several hilts (from chisels) from Lombok. What I've noticed is there a high predominance of hilts with buffalo horn on Lombok klewangs. I suspect horn hilts are more likely to come from Sumatra. By and large these klewangs are not that uncommon in Australia, but most of them have wooden hilts, often the dragon head carved style seen above. Whenever I've come across a piece described as a Lombok Island klewang, it's usually a horn hilt. The quality of the silver on the rest of the hilt often seems to be better too. I have about 20 chisels from Lombok with horn hilts and I just get the impression that they are more prone to use horn and that the quality of the horn carving is pretty damn good. Ron

9th September 2010, 08:56 AM	#10
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Correction: horn hilts are more likely to be Lombok. That's my experience.

9th September 2010, 10:50 PM	#13
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow thats a really nice example! I'm wondering, how can these very similar styles of klewang be from both Sumatra AND Lombok? What ethnic group are they from? Why are their styles sooo similar? I'm not an expert AT ALL on Indonesian weapons, so I'm somewhat lost...

10th September 2010, 02:31 AM	#14
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	They are from different island cultures, but there are similarities among all the islands. The Lombok Islanders are known as Sassak people. Lombok is right next to Bali. They tend to have quite an evolved artistic style compared to other places in the region. Generally, their artefacts are quite distinct and interesting. But their klewangs looks just like other klewangs. However, as I said, I think they tend be made of better materials, and the workmanship seems to be better.

25th September 2010, 09:11 AM	#15
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Sorry for the belated response! Thank you for that, my knowledge of Indonesian weaponry is limited. I didn't know if every group on every island had their own distinctive blades, or if there were various trends and influences from foreign cultures... and it seems there's just a beautiful mix of both indigenous design and centuries of influences and cross-pollinization of ideas and styles... making it harder and even more interesting to study Indonesian weapons this style of klewang has really grown on me. The balance and heft is great and the aesthetics are elegant. I feel like a skilled pendekar could slash through a 100 men with one of these...

25th September 2010, 03:41 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	My pamor construction is the same style as your's Sajen . My example may well be the sharpest sword I have . A mere flick of the wrist and you can turn a pool noodle into little discs . These would have been quite effective at close quarters .

25th September 2010, 04:02 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,488	Hello Rick, so is my guess that my one is from Lombok maybe correct. The blade is one of the finest pamor blades I have.

25th September 2010, 04:39 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I'm in the same boat as you Sajen . I couldn't say for sure .

28th May 2011, 11:29 PM	#20
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Perhaps it is inappropriate to resurrect an old thread.. But I think I am fallin' in love with these Sumatran/Sassak style blades... I don't know if it's a good thing... Attached Images

29th May 2011, 01:03 AM	#21
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nothing wrong with that!! Nothing wrong with falling in love with them, it is a good thing and nothing wrong with that. The study material offers a lot when in hand and there is little info to fall back on so exacting research might be considered ground breaking I have always found them a pleasure to handle and view. Gav

29th May 2011, 02:41 AM	#22
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks Gav for the reassurance and enabling Anyone know anything about the pedang, top of the 3? It has this fuller that goes all the way to the false edge. Usually they look like pedang-sabet like the 2nd one (sometimes with fullers), or they're heavier golok or klewang types, or the katana-like ones as seen 3rd down. I never saw a blade like the one up top so, since it was a good deal, I snatched it up.

29th May 2011, 03:59 PM	#23
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I never saw a pommel like the one at the bottom of the picture on one of these swords . I'm guessing it is a found, natural shape that resembles the traditional form . There could be some talismanic value to having one of these free form hilts . I believe they are rare and highly prized in the world of keris .

29th May 2011, 04:39 PM	#24
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I too have never seen another one like it, where it is the shape of the typical pommel (Makara?) but without the carvings... so because of that and because it has my favorite Indonesian pedang blade shape (I call "Katana-tip"), I had to get it. Rick, would you mind explaining to me why the uncarved is so special? To me, it would seem like carved takes more work than uncarved, so if uncarved was better, wouldn't you see more of those?? Yea, novice questions

29th May 2011, 04:49 PM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Esoterica I can't explain, I can guess; these 'natural' forms that mimic hilt pommels and keris handles come from the 'natural' world not from the hand of man . That makes them special .

29th May 2011, 08:36 PM	#26
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Perhaps, though the resemblance is too much - I think someone simply shaped buffalo horn into the look of the typical pommel and then did not proceed to make the traditional carvings, but I don't know for sure. These blades were definitely big in Lombok from the little I've read, and apparently found in central/south Sumatra... I wonder what factors prompted their being readily adopted in Sumatra?? ...versus Borneo and Java which seem to have had their own endemic parangs and pedangs already well-established. I could be wrong about my assumptions however, I am pretty new to Indonesian weapons. Sumatran weapons are the most fascinating to me, but there seems to be the least information on them... aside from the occasional Batak place, piso podang, or Acehnese collection...

1st June 2011, 07:12 PM	#28
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Hindu influence? What makes you say that? I'm not yet very good at differentiating different stylistic differences that could be attributed to Islamic, Hindu, or local beliefs...

2nd June 2011, 03:35 PM	#30
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I see... I wonder why they chose Makara as a popular motif on swords, perhaps because of the fierceness of crocodiles... Did the coming and popularity of Islam start to change the Hindu and animist stylistic elements of the weapons? I've heard that Islamic beliefs forbid the carving of idols, animals, etc. on hilt - not sure if it's true. The sword hilt you just provided an image for - is that a very reduced and stylized form of Makara?