Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th September 2020, 09:02 AM   #1
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 221
Default Balinese bilah pamor

Please help to identify the pamor of this Balinese bilah. Thank you.
Attached Images
 
Anthony G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 12:29 PM   #2
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Balinese?? Please show us the full blade.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 04:07 PM   #3
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 221
Default

Attached as requested.
Attached Images
   
Anthony G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 04:49 PM   #4
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 840
Default

IMO: sumsum buron
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 05:34 PM   #5
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Thank you Antony and the blade looks in Balinese or Lombok style indeed and to have some age.
Sumsum Buron is a rare Javanese pamor pattern and it does not look very similar to this one (it has 2 versions) but I can't identify it better, may be pamor Srante but only a Balinese expert could confirm it with some certainty.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 09:00 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,630
Default

and then the next Balinese expert we found would give it a different name
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 10:24 PM   #7
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,856
Default

Alan, you have hit upon my greatest frustration with 'kerisology' ; for me it is like trying to hold a shelless egg.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 02:39 AM   #8
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,630
Default

Yes Rick, you are right, but it makes perfect sense if you are Javanese, and maybe for some other people too.

It is a general principle of Javanese communication that when you say something, it means precisely what you intend it to mean, no more, and no less. How the person receiving the message interprets what you are saying is up to him.

Javanese people in my experience are not good, nor effective letter writers, but they do communicate very well in a face to face situation. This is because at least half of all interpersonal communication with Javanese people is through body language.

It is a general principle of Javanese culture & society that the more meanings you can give to any one thing, the better. The true meaning will be obvious to the person who has the right or the need to understand , to others the understanding they gain will be in accordance with their level of knowledge or need.

Now this does not mean that only one person or idea can be correct, rather, it means that everybody can be correct, depending upon their own individual perspective.

Names are not particularly important, understanding is.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 08:00 AM   #9
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
and then the next Balinese expert we found would give it a different name


Yes Alan, I agree. Would you be able to confirm that this blade is from Bali or Lombok, or made by somebody from another culture (Java or Madura) but in Balinese style?
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 08:38 AM   #10
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,630
Default

No Jean, I could not confirm too much from the photos. Yes, it certainly looks like Bali, that I can confirm, but whether Bali or Lombok or Madura, sorry no idea, and frankly, even if i had it my hand I'd only be guessing.

Bali blades from Madura are not something that is only recent, as far as I know Bali was getting work done in Madura long, long ago, and still is.

Current Balinese makers will work together with both Jawa makers and Madura makers.

When a blade is already complete and particularly if it has a bit of age and what appears to be original dress, it is probably impossible to know exactly where something was made.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 10:44 AM   #11
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Thank you Alan, and this is a typical case of frustration as mentioned by Rick.
Obviously I cannot tell either, I just observe that the surface finish and the pamor pattern do not look typical of old Balinese blades.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2020, 07:41 AM   #12
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 221
Default

thank you all for the advice
Anthony G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2020, 01:28 PM   #13
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 221
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
thank you all for the advice


My friend refers to a lombok book and told me this is Pamor Rante
Anthony G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2020, 05:53 PM   #14
Interested Party
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
My friend refers to a lombok book and told me this is Pamor Rante


Lombok book?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2020, 07:04 PM   #15
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
My friend refers to a lombok book and told me this is Pamor Rante


Yes, I had the same guess probably based on the same book (pamor Rante in Lombok or Srante in Bali, although they may be slightly different).
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2020, 12:10 AM   #16
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 221
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Yes, I had the same guess probably based on the same book (pamor Rante in Lombok or Srante in Bali, although they may be slightly different).
Regards


Indeed. This is thy book.
Anthony G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2020, 08:14 AM   #17
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party
Lombok book?


Book "Keris di Lombok" by Ir Lalu Djelenga (a reference book published in 2000, very difficult to find nowadays).
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2020, 08:25 AM   #18
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
Indeed. This is thy book.


Others may have identified the pamor pattern of the blade shown in the Lombok book as Bendo Sagodo. In Bali pamor Srante is also called Uler Lulut. Difficult question....

Last edited by Jean : 8th September 2020 at 12:23 PM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:52 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.