The value of the additional visual sources for the study of historical weapons.

Sancar · 8th January 2016, 09:55 AM

This painting has nothing to do with Umayyad general Tarık Bin Ziyad or his invasion of Andulusian Spain. This is a scene from Shahnama, named "Charge of the Cavaliers of Faramouz". I can't say which time and place this miniature was painted for sure, but my educated guess is possibly in Iran, and more likely from post-Ilkhanid. It might be from Turkmen schools of art of Herat or Shiraz, or from Jelayirid period. The style of art looks like it is before Timurid period, so somewhere between Jalayirids and Timurids.

ariel · 8th January 2016, 11:29 AM

Thanks for the precise attribution. Very impressive.

fernando · 8th January 2016, 12:43 PM

Precious input, Sancar. While your info is the correct one, this saves me from having to contact the publishers of 'History of Portugal' work, for further details, something i promised and was about to do.
Now it is easy to browse the Net and learn that this is a work of Persian school, a gouache on paper by Abu'l-Qasim Manur Firdawsi (C.934-C.1020).
On the other hand ...
I did not say that this scene represented the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, but was in the same page where the author narrates such events, apparently to call our attention for the efficiency of Islamic cavalry. What the legend side note refers is that "the quick progression of the Islamic armies, not only in the Iberian Peninsula but equally in other zones atacked by the Cavaliers of Islam (up to the Anatolic borders of the Bizantine empire, to the margins of the Indo and Uzbesquitan) was fundamentally based on the contingents of light cavalry, and so on ..."
Whether the parallelism between such scenes or the example chosen by the author is not so fortunate, is another issue.

ariel · 8th January 2016, 05:16 PM

Even worse: Firdawsi (10-11 cen) was the author of Shahname.
The miniature as per net references is either 14 or 17 century.

fernando · 9th January 2016, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Even worse: Firdawsi (10-11 cen) was the author of Shahname.
The miniature as per net references is either 14 or 17 century.

Well ... try this approach:
The Shahname (The Book of Kings) was written by Firdawsi between 977 and 1010.
Later in time a number of sumptuous illustrated copies were edited, many of them broken up in sheets being sold out there during the 20th century, some reaching a price over 9000 pounds.
So it seems plausible that the discussed illustration was painted by a miniaturist of the so called Persian school during the 14th century; being currently exhibited in the Louvre.
So much for the early version of the Muslim saber

ariel · 9th January 2016, 05:31 PM

Yup :-((((

fernando · 10th January 2016, 12:17 PM

I grew up in a country ambiance in that, the weapons carried by the Moors since they entered the Peninsula, included swords with recurved blades; scimitars, alfanges, you name it. Perhaps this was a legend based in that, these have a more romantic contents than straight bladed ones, i don't know.
Also i have a book about some aristrocat arms collection in that the author, a scholar, wrote:

In the battles that followed the Arabic invasion on 711 and resulted, in Northern Spain, in the uprising of Christian monarchies, Asturians and Lionese wielded swords of Roman tradition, in contrast with Persians and Arabs who exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin. The struggle for Reconquist being itensified and having submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs from the center and north of the Iberian Peninsula, one may not doubt that Muslim arts soon exercised certain spirit of influence in Western weaponry and, due to their influx that, in the Mossarab artistic, evoluted models od vertical swords which were supported as said, in the Roman model, suffering the effects - at least in the upper part of the pieces - the aptitude and elegance of the smiths of the Neo-christian workshops.From there, logicaly, the specimens that in Spain, Portugal and Fench midi appeared in the IX century and which development in European territory can not be denied.

Maybe the author is putting all eggs in the basket and mine is a naïve story, but i fekt like posting it anyhow.

.

10th January 2016, 12:17 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	I grew up in a country ambiance in that, the weapons carried by the Moors since they entered the Peninsula, included swords with recurved blades; scimitars, alfanges, you name it. Perhaps this was a legend based in that, these have a more romantic contents than straight bladed ones, i don't know. Also i have a book about some aristrocat arms collection in that the author, a scholar, wrote: In the battles that followed the Arabic invasion on 711 and resulted, in Northern Spain, in the uprising of Christian monarchies, Asturians and Lionese wielded swords of Roman tradition, in contrast with Persians and Arabs who exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin. The struggle for Reconquist being itensified and having submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs from the center and north of the Iberian Peninsula, one may not doubt that Muslim arts soon exercised certain spirit of influence in Western weaponry and, due to their influx that, in the Mossarab artistic, evoluted models od vertical swords which were supported as said, in the Roman model, suffering the effects - at least in the upper part of the pieces - the aptitude and elegance of the smiths of the Neo-christian workshops.From there, logicaly, the specimens that in Spain, Portugal and Fench midi appeared in the IX century and which development in European territory can not be denied. Maybe the author is putting all eggs in the basket and mine is a naïve story, but i fekt like posting it anyhow. . Attached Images

8th January 2016, 09:55 AM	#1
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	This painting has nothing to do with Umayyad general Tarık Bin Ziyad or his invasion of Andulusian Spain. This is a scene from Shahnama, named "Charge of the Cavaliers of Faramouz". I can't say which time and place this miniature was painted for sure, but my educated guess is possibly in Iran, and more likely from post-Ilkhanid. It might be from Turkmen schools of art of Herat or Shiraz, or from Jelayirid period. The style of art looks like it is before Timurid period, so somewhere between Jalayirids and Timurids.

8th January 2016, 11:29 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the precise attribution. Very impressive.

8th January 2016, 12:43 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Precious input, Sancar. While your info is the correct one, this saves me from having to contact the publishers of 'History of Portugal' work, for further details, something i promised and was about to do. Now it is easy to browse the Net and learn that this is a work of Persian school, a gouache on paper by Abu'l-Qasim Manur Firdawsi (C.934-C.1020). On the other hand ... I did not say that this scene represented the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, but was in the same page where the author narrates such events, apparently to call our attention for the efficiency of Islamic cavalry. What the legend side note refers is that "the quick progression of the Islamic armies, not only in the Iberian Peninsula but equally in other zones atacked by the Cavaliers of Islam (up to the Anatolic borders of the Bizantine empire, to the margins of the Indo and Uzbesquitan) was fundamentally based on the contingents of light cavalry, and so on ..." Whether the parallelism between such scenes or the example chosen by the author is not so fortunate, is another issue.

8th January 2016, 05:16 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Even worse: Firdawsi (10-11 cen) was the author of Shahname. The miniature as per net references is either 14 or 17 century.

9th January 2016, 05:31 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup :-((((