Sahel ? dagger

colin henshaw · 20th September 2014, 04:41 PM

Hi

I found this little African dagger fairly recently, its of a type I havn't seen before. Can anyone help to identify it ?

Those iron hoops round the hilt make me think of northern Nigerian type arm daggers etc., but the sheath of hide over wood, seems more like East African work.

Any ideas, or images of comparative examples etc would be appreciated.

colin henshaw · 24th September 2014, 09:30 AM

Anyone have some ideas on this dagger ?

Tim Simmons · 24th September 2014, 01:53 PM

South Sudan. I think there are similar daggers in the Pittrivers south sudan project.

http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/

similar form
http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/details/1930.86.13/

colin henshaw · 26th September 2014, 09:43 AM

Thanks Tim, you could be right. The Jur knife shown certainly has similarities of form. However, the iron bands round the hilt and line decoration to the blade centre on my dagger, don't seem to appear on Sudan or East African examples ??

Any other comments/ideas are welcome.

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2014, 05:57 PM

What I always find intriguing is that even 20th century examples of Sudanese daggers often carry various crudely inscribed markings, and often in these linear fashion groupings. It seems compelling proof of deep symbolic meanings in many of the markings on these weapons which far exceed the idea that natives simply copied established markings to signify quality etc as with spurious European markings.

Obviously in many cases, perhaps even this one, this crude application may simply be simulated motif seen on other arms, but many 'rocker' type designs may have that deeper significance.

It would be interesting to see other Sudanese daggers with markings of this kind to look further into these possibilities.

DaveA · 26th September 2014, 11:14 PM

Hi Jim,

Here are three knives from Sudan with interesting markings. Perhaps they will be useful for your research!

Best,

Dave A.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2014, 02:48 AM

WOW! Those are superb examples Dave! Thank you so much!
These show pretty much what I mean about symbolism, and often these configurations are applied by tribesmen themselves as well as by local artisans. While as I noted, in many cases these stylized motif are copying decoration seen elsewhere, examples such as in the dagger in photo #2 with the linear arcs paired .....and these are imitating the 'Lohr' panel seen on the upper blade of many kaskara.

The geometric lines and dots seem to imitate certain 'map' type configurations with strategic locations represented on some Islamic blades. Geometrics and symmetry are key symbolism often seen in tribal folk religion and talismanic imbuement .

I really do appreciate these additions Dave, and definitely ideal additions to my notes!

DaveA · 27th September 2014, 03:21 AM

Happy to be of service! I ask only that you share your findings.

Now that I know what you are looking for, I will dig deeper and see what else I can find.

- Dave

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2014, 04:33 AM

You bet Dave! That is what we do here, and while research is often slow, it is always good to see threads from some time ago reopened with new data. These threads are archives which always remain 'open cases' and always essentially active, so hopefully others will also join in adding examples they have or have seen.
Thank you again!!!
Jim

20th September 2014, 04:41 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Sahel ? dagger Hi I found this little African dagger fairly recently, its of a type I havn't seen before. Can anyone help to identify it ? Those iron hoops round the hilt make me think of northern Nigerian type arm daggers etc., but the sheath of hide over wood, seems more like East African work. Any ideas, or images of comparative examples etc would be appreciated. Attached Images

24th September 2014, 01:53 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	South Sudan. I think there are similar daggers in the Pittrivers south sudan project. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/ similar form http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/details/1930.86.13/ Last edited by Tim Simmons; 24th September 2014 at 02:03 PM.

26th September 2014, 11:14 PM	#6
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	A three-knife case of knives from Sudan Hi Jim, Here are three knives from Sudan with interesting markings. Perhaps they will be useful for your research! Best, Dave A. Attached Images

27th September 2014, 03:21 AM	#8
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Good! Happy to be of service! I ask only that you share your findings. Now that I know what you are looking for, I will dig deeper and see what else I can find. - Dave

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24th September 2014, 09:30 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Anyone have some ideas on this dagger ?

26th September 2014, 09:43 AM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Thanks Tim, you could be right. The Jur knife shown certainly has similarities of form. However, the iron bands round the hilt and line decoration to the blade centre on my dagger, don't seem to appear on Sudan or East African examples ?? Any other comments/ideas are welcome.

26th September 2014, 05:57 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,731	What I always find intriguing is that even 20th century examples of Sudanese daggers often carry various crudely inscribed markings, and often in these linear fashion groupings. It seems compelling proof of deep symbolic meanings in many of the markings on these weapons which far exceed the idea that natives simply copied established markings to signify quality etc as with spurious European markings. Obviously in many cases, perhaps even this one, this crude application may simply be simulated motif seen on other arms, but many 'rocker' type designs may have that deeper significance. It would be interesting to see other Sudanese daggers with markings of this kind to look further into these possibilities.

27th September 2014, 02:48 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,731	WOW! Those are superb examples Dave! Thank you so much! These show pretty much what I mean about symbolism, and often these configurations are applied by tribesmen themselves as well as by local artisans. While as I noted, in many cases these stylized motif are copying decoration seen elsewhere, examples such as in the dagger in photo #2 with the linear arcs paired .....and these are imitating the 'Lohr' panel seen on the upper blade of many kaskara. The geometric lines and dots seem to imitate certain 'map' type configurations with strategic locations represented on some Islamic blades. Geometrics and symmetry are key symbolism often seen in tribal folk religion and talismanic imbuement . I really do appreciate these additions Dave, and definitely ideal additions to my notes!

27th September 2014, 04:33 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,731	You bet Dave! That is what we do here, and while research is often slow, it is always good to see threads from some time ago reopened with new data. These threads are archives which always remain 'open cases' and always essentially active, so hopefully others will also join in adding examples they have or have seen. Thank you again!!! Jim