Russian Powderflask???

mjamerks · 4th February 2012, 12:21 PM

Hereby pics of what I believe is a antique Russian brass powderflask,
with very nice enamel work.
Both sides showing the imperial eagle and a portret from maybe Peter the great??
I would like to hear some opinions.
Thanks

Martin

ariel · 4th February 2012, 12:53 PM

What is the approximate volume?
Taking into account what we know about Peter the Great and the general russian propensities, this flask might have been intended for a more joyful use :-)

mjamerks · 4th February 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What is the approximate volume?
Taking into account what we know about Peter the Great and the general russian propensities, this flask might have been intended for a more joyful use :-)

Measurements are:
Diameter is 13.5 cm or 5.4 inches.
Wide: 4 cm or 1.6 inches.
You can set it right up,there are 2 feet under the eagles.

ariel · 4th February 2012, 01:18 PM

Roughly ~ 150-200 ml. Fill it with vodka, and should be enough for a couple of hours in cold weather :-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Hereby pics of what I believe is a antique Russian brass powderflask,
with very nice enamel work.
Both sides showing the imperial eagle and a portret from maybe Peter the great??
I would like to hear some opinions.
Thanks

Martin

Salaams mjamerks~ Very nice flask...Cloisonne enamel .. I looked up Peter the Great on wiki for a full account. You are spot on with the house of Romanov Imperial Eagles and the portraits on wiki bear a distinct resemblence to the stamp on your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

mjamerks · 4th February 2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams mjamerks~ Very nice flask...Cloisonne enamel .. I looked up Peter the Great on wiki for a full account. You are spot on with the house of Romanov Imperial Eagles and the portraits on wiki bear a distinct resemblence to the stamp on your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Yes it looks so.
But then I wonder if this flask is from the same time period??
early 18th century.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Yes it looks so.
But then I wonder if this flask is from the same time period??
early 18th century.

Salaams ~ Why not ?... You could even take a mid date say 1690 to 1700 as he looks about 20 or 25 in the stamp...

Peter Alekseyevich Romanov House of Romanov Father Alexis Mother Natalya Naryshkina Born 9 June 1672 Moscow Died 8 February 1725 (aged 52) Saint Petersburg Burial Peter and Paul Cathedral.

So the very start of the 18th C is a fair guestimate...

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 03:01 PM

Salaams~ Check out www.spoonplanet.com and note the difference between two similar techniques... Yours is I believe the older cloisonne'

Cloisonne vs. Champleve
Cloisonne is technically a much more difficult process. The basic spoon is created, then very small wires are soldered onto the spoon creating the cloisonnes or cells. These are then filled with enamel and fired. The process may be repeated several times until the desired effects are reached. This process is very skilled labor intensive and is seldom used today.

Champleve is a newer much simpler process that is still used today. The cells are created during the casting (or die creation) stage of production and then filled with enamel and fired. This requires much less skilled workmanship and is cheaper to produce and sell.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 4th February 2012, 03:18 PM

It looks much later to me: very late 19th - beginning of the 20th century.
Very old Russian enamels were of high artistic quality , culminating in Faberge's works. The centers were in St. Petersburgh and, especially, Moscow for religious use and expensive utilitarian objects This one ( Cloissone, as Dom correctly mentioned) is a pretty crude one, with inaccurate soldering, crooked posting of the spout, a lot of flaking of the enamel, it's uneven thickness, spilling of one color onto another, cheap chain and very rough cast decorations of the face ( Peter's, very likely) and the imperial eagle. The colors are of a garish provincial taste. Mass production of a small enterprise. Nothing bad about it, it is a delightful trinket, but not earlier than the end of the 19th century.

BTW, cloissone work is essentially identical to filigree, only with the enameling step. Filigree is used very often on contemporary Caucasian souvenirs ( kindjals, cups, vases etc) and is viewed there as a job for quickly-trained beginners. Nothing sophisticated; they hire 17 y.o. girls and those are mass-producing it on the second day of work.

If I am correct about it's dating, it is unlikely to be a powder flask: black powder was very much on it's way out.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It looks much later to me: very late 19th - beginning of the 20th century.
Very old Russian enamels were of high artistic quality , culminating in Faberge's works. The centers were in St. Petersburgh and, especially, Moscow for religious use and expensive utilitarian objects This one ( Cloissone, as Dom correctly mentioned) is a pretty crude one, with inaccurate soldering, crooked posting of the spout, a lot of flaking of the enamel, it's uneven thickness, spilling of one color onto another, cheap chain and very rough cast decorations of the face ( Peter's, very likely) and the imperial eagle. The colors are of a garish provincial taste. Mass production of a small enterprise. Nothing bad about it, it is a delightful trinket, but not earlier than the end of the 19th century.

BTW, cloissone work is essentially identical to filigree, only with the enameling step. Filigree is used very often on contemporary Caucasian souvenirs ( kindjals, cups, vases etc) and is viewed there as a job for quickly-trained beginners. Nothing sophisticated; they hire 17 y.o. girls and those are mass-producing it on the second day of work.

If I am correct about it's dating, it is unlikely to be a powder flask: black powder was very much on it's way out.

Salaams ariel... Good point ! I stand corrected methinks. Having checked Faberge Russian cloissonne' I see that all the bodies are either silver or gold and as you point out the chain is not in the quality range ... I further note from the web that~ "Most existing Byzantine enamels have soldered cloisons, however the use of solder to adhere the cloison wires has fallen out of favor due to its difficulty, with the exception of some "purist contemporary enamellists" who create fine watch faces and high quality very expensive jewelry. Instead of soldering the cloisons to the base metal, the base metal is fired with a thin layer of clear enamel. The cloisonné wire is glued to the enamel surface with gum tragacanth. When the gum has dried, the piece is fired again to fuse the cloisonné wire to the clear enamel. The gum burns off, leaving no residue".
I also note that 3 different techniques exist ie flat concave and convex. Overall it looks like as you say late 19th cheap copy and who knows what it was used for... trinket?...
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mjamerks · 5th February 2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ariel... Good point ! I stand corrected methinks. Having checked Faberge Russian cloissonne' I see that all the bodies are either silver or gold and as you point out the chain is not in the quality range ... I further note from the web that~ "Most existing Byzantine enamels have soldered cloisons, however the use of solder to adhere the cloison wires has fallen out of favor due to its difficulty, with the exception of some "purist contemporary enamellists" who create fine watch faces and high quality very expensive jewelry. Instead of soldering the cloisons to the base metal, the base metal is fired with a thin layer of clear enamel. The cloisonné wire is glued to the enamel surface with gum tragacanth. When the gum has dried, the piece is fired again to fuse the cloisonné wire to the clear enamel. The gum burns off, leaving no residue".
I also note that 3 different techniques exist ie flat concave and convex. Overall it looks like as you say late 19th cheap copy and who knows what it was used for... trinket?...
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks for your opinions.
My feeling says this piece is from around 1850,and probably
made by a local village workshop.
I dont think you can compare this piece with Faberge works,as they made a total differnt quality for rich customers.
Cloisonne techniques were used by many craftsman in all different qualities.
As for its function booze or blackpowder I am not sure.
Rgds
Martin

4th February 2012, 12:21 PM	#1
mjamerks Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: netherlands Posts: 108	Russian Powderflask??? Hereby pics of what I believe is a antique Russian brass powderflask, with very nice enamel work. Both sides showing the imperial eagle and a portret from maybe Peter the great?? I would like to hear some opinions. Thanks Martin Attached Images

4th February 2012, 03:18 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It looks much later to me: very late 19th - beginning of the 20th century. Very old Russian enamels were of high artistic quality , culminating in Faberge's works. The centers were in St. Petersburgh and, especially, Moscow for religious use and expensive utilitarian objects This one ( Cloissone, as Dom correctly mentioned) is a pretty crude one, with inaccurate soldering, crooked posting of the spout, a lot of flaking of the enamel, it's uneven thickness, spilling of one color onto another, cheap chain and very rough cast decorations of the face ( Peter's, very likely) and the imperial eagle. The colors are of a garish provincial taste. Mass production of a small enterprise. Nothing bad about it, it is a delightful trinket, but not earlier than the end of the 19th century. BTW, cloissone work is essentially identical to filigree, only with the enameling step. Filigree is used very often on contemporary Caucasian souvenirs ( kindjals, cups, vases etc) and is viewed there as a job for quickly-trained beginners. Nothing sophisticated; they hire 17 y.o. girls and those are mass-producing it on the second day of work. If I am correct about it's dating, it is unlikely to be a powder flask: black powder was very much on it's way out. Last edited by ariel; 4th February 2012 at 03:38 PM.

4th February 2012, 12:53 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is the approximate volume? Taking into account what we know about Peter the Great and the general russian propensities, this flask might have been intended for a more joyful use :-)

4th February 2012, 01:18 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Roughly ~ 150-200 ml. Fill it with vodka, and should be enough for a couple of hours in cold weather :-)

4th February 2012, 03:01 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams~ Check out www.spoonplanet.com and note the difference between two similar techniques... Yours is I believe the older cloisonne' Cloisonne vs. Champleve Cloisonne is technically a much more difficult process. The basic spoon is created, then very small wires are soldered onto the spoon creating the cloisonnes or cells. These are then filled with enamel and fired. The process may be repeated several times until the desired effects are reached. This process is very skilled labor intensive and is seldom used today. Champleve is a newer much simpler process that is still used today. The cells are created during the casting (or die creation) stage of production and then filled with enamel and fired. This requires much less skilled workmanship and is cheaper to produce and sell. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.