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Old 11th July 2013, 07:34 AM   #61
Maurice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, this is just my opinion, but i would also think that these inscriptions are relative recent to the blade. The blade itself does seem to be old as does the rest of the ensemble. I do like those fullers. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the patina. Obviously there is some patina here, but there is also a lot of dirt. Dirt is not patina. Sliver can be cleaned up without removing patina. Wood and horn can be revitalized without removing patina.
I have never seen a blade from this areas with this extent of writing on the blade that wasn't either obviously recent or at least suspicious. I am sorry that i have no examples to show as this is a bit outside my collection area. Perhaps since this is your collection area you could show us some provenanced examples that you know of to have have true age to their extensive inlay work. It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing?


Hi David, ofcourse I also know the difference of dirt and patina.
What I'm trying to prevent is that this old piece will get the very shiny appearance which is seen on a lot of old pieces by overcleaning.
According this piece I really like the contrast! Very good patina on the handle, blade and scabbard, and the mint condition of the silver inlay.
If I will clean this piece too much, probably most people would say the whole pedang is a new one.

My collecting area is Borneo, as you all know by know. But besides that I still like to collect some "odd" and "rare" pieces too.

I agree that the silverwork inlay is very pristine according the patina. It could be that it's indeed done latter, or that it had been preserved very good somehow because of one reason or the other.
What I do know about the inlay, is that according mandaus you also see differences. Mandaus from the Mahakam area have much more quality inlay and almost never are missing inlay, also when they are very old.
Mandaus of the same age from the Baram area however, often misses a lot of dots. Reason??? (smaller dots?, less quality of the brass,silver?, less craftmanship?)

Waiting for a translation....
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Old 11th July 2013, 07:47 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.



Indeed a very different quality of inlay...
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Old 11th July 2013, 07:49 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael


Thanks for posting the image of concerning Djelengga page!
Looks like a must have article to me...

Maurice
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Old 11th July 2013, 08:12 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Thanks for posting the image of concerning Djelengga page!
Looks like a must have article to me...

Maurice


If you want I can copy some pages for you and send it to you.

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 11th July 2013, 08:17 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Indeed a very different quality of inlay...


Detlef's example in the swap looks more like koftgari work imho.
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Old 13th July 2013, 12:30 AM   #66
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The verse in question was from Quran chapter 27 verse 30. It relates to the story of King Solomon. The translation reads as follows:

"Indeed, it is from Solomon, and indeed it reads, "In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Compassionate".

Believed this is the only chapter in the holy Quran that does not start with Basmallah as the verse was mentioned within its chapter itself.
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Old 13th July 2013, 12:38 AM   #67
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The verse relates to the story of King Solomon writing a letter to Balqis, Queen of Sheba extending her to the worship of one true God. Not a typical story that you would probably find in the old testament, I must say.
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Old 13th July 2013, 01:39 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jentayu
The verse relates to the story of King Solomon writing a letter to Balqis, Queen of Sheba extending her to the worship of one true God. Not a typical story that you would probably find in the old testament, I must say.


except the script on the sword is full of repitition of the bassmallah and I cannot find any verse in it :-)
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Old 13th July 2013, 08:58 AM   #69
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Jentayu, thanks for your translation.
However, I almost spilled out my morning coffee when I read your comment about the Basmallah.
I think you mixed it up. It is the 9th surah, At-Tawbah, that is the only sura not starting with Basmallah. Among "some esoteric Muslims" this complete surah has strong protective qualities.
The 27th is the only surah where Basmallah is also within the surah.
Probably this exception also makes this specific verse strongly protective and talismanic, too.
Basmallah, by itself, has of course very strong protective qualities, too.

Michael
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Old 13th July 2013, 09:27 AM   #70
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Yes Michael you are right. I got it mixed up with Suratul Tawba. Chapter 27, An Naml where basmallah was mentioned in its chapter while At Tawba is the one without basmallah for start.
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:50 PM   #71
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Jentayu, thank you for the translation.
Is this translation repeated on the sides of the blade? (as the translation seems so short concerning all the texts written on the blade)...

And can you tell something about the meaning of the text/figures on the spine?

Michael thanks a lot for your correction, and I'm sorry it took you a half cup of coffee spoilt at first!
But that's a lot more interesting as what Jentayu is saying about the verse!

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledgement about these kind of verses.
So I understand it right that the text on the blade is from the 27th verse?

Kind regards,
Maurice
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Old 19th July 2013, 06:44 PM   #72
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HERE IS A SIMULAR EXAMPLE OF MINE WITH INLAYED INSCRIPTIONS. BLADE 24IN. TOTAL 30 IN. NO SCABBARD. SILVER WITH CARVED HORN POMMEL. WAS SAID TO BE 19TH. CENTURY. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WHAT IT SAYS OR IF IT IS SOME SORT OF CALENDAR OR TAILSMANIC TABLE. THANKS
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Old 19th July 2013, 07:58 PM   #73
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MY EXAMPLE WITH SWASSA AND GOLD UNFORTUNATELY THE SWASSA SCABBARD TIP IS MISSING AND REPLACED WITH A POORLY MADE COPPER ONE. THIS EXAMPLE HAS AN INTERESTING PARMOR BLADE AS WELL. 30 INCHES LONG IN SCABBARD.
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Old 19th July 2013, 09:25 PM   #74
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TWO MORE EXAMPLES BOTH WITH SILVER THE SMALLER ONE IS 24 1/4 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD. SILVER COVERED SCABBARD WITH ROUGH TEXTURED WATERED STEEL BLADE, HORN POMMEL.
2. SILVER COVERED GRIP WITH A FEW COPPER BANDS HEAVY WATERED STEEL BLADE WITH SMOOTH FINISH. 26 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD.
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Old 19th July 2013, 10:13 PM   #75
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Thanks for adding your pieces, Barry!

Both examples from your last post look like Lombok workmanship to me.

The suasa piece is very sweet! IMHO this one is from Sumatra.

I'd love to see the inlay of the first piece more clearly since this is especially pertinent for this thread! Could you please give resizing another try? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 20th July 2013, 09:21 AM   #76
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Barry, thank you for your contribution here!
The one you have with inlaid blade looks also nice.
Hopefully you can get more clear and blown up images like Kai suggests?

Maurice
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Old 22nd July 2013, 07:21 PM   #77
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I am sorry, yet also to me the inlays of the initial Pedang seem to be done at least after the WWII.

Maurice, you probably have seen the other indonesian items from the original auction. These items surely weren't collected before 60ties.

http://katalog.auktionshaus-wendl.c...kat/h/119/a/76/

Especially the kerisses have touch of beeing made to catch a colector with some bigger money, yet not so good understanding of materia.

You also see, how many indonesian items are returned to the auction house.

For comparison some other stuff coming out of Lombok these days.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 09:27 PM   #78
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It is interesting that the other pedang classified as Lombok by the auction house also seems to have the features of Lombok according to my earlier post.
Maybe the tags are the original collection tags (no joke anymore about this) and that they both actually were collected in 1945 on Lombok by the original owner?

Michael
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Old 23rd July 2013, 07:46 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe the tags are the original collection tags (no joke anymore about this) and that they both actually were collected in 1945 on Lombok by the original owner?

Michael


The tags could indicate a year or could not: look through the other tags of this collection.

Honestly said, if there would be a tag, which explicitly states, the item has been collected 1945, I would believe it in the same degree as I believe in the authenticity of the most other items of this collection. To me this collection simply is not serious enough. We should look on the item and not on the tag. I stated my opinion about this item in the previous post and have nothing more to add to this thread.

Thanks!
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Old 23rd July 2013, 02:37 PM   #80
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VVV,

I believe I see what you are saying about the varying, but similar hilt styles.

Would you say that the top example here is more likely Lombok, while the bottom one is more likely Sumatra??

There is a real difference in the angles(with the Lombok example sharper) and detail in the horn carving.
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Old 23rd July 2013, 02:37 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
To me this collection simply is not serious enough. We should look on the item and not on the tag.

To me we should discuss this pedang and not the other items.
Than we wouldn't have a deflected discussion.
And it is a fact the tag was on the item, so it's not bad discussing the label also.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Maurice, you probably have seen the other indonesian items from the original auction. These items surely weren't collected before 60ties.


Yes I do have. Maybe you're right about the kerisses, as I have limited knowledge about them and I don't collect them myself. According other items I disagree in some cases. There were also some good 19th century pieces (not krisses) which would be good collection items They could be collected way earlier before the 60's. But maybe they're collected a month ago but are 19th century?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Especially the kerisses have touch of beeing made to catch a colector with some bigger money, yet not so good understanding of materia.

I'm not collecting kerisses and I must agree I didn't like all of them either, but irrelevant to the pedang.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
You also see, how many indonesian items are returned to the auction house.

Yes, but here again. What does it have to do with the discussed pedang in this thread?
What does this imply to you then?
I wouldn't have bought those "returned" pieces in the first place, so I wouldn't have to return them afterwards.
And f.i. the returned rencong is a good original old one, though not fancy!?
Maybe it was only one "non seriously buyer" who bid on the all later "returned" items? Who knows?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
I would believe it in the same degree as I believe in the authenticity of the most other items of this collection.

What do you think about the pedang item nr. 51? And the authenticity of the rencong? Both also 60's?
My opinion is that these are both good old ones, and the "pedang" nr. 51 is very attractive also in my opinion and worthy in a good collection! But......not relevant to my pedang which I put up for discussion here in the first place. So I leave it with this!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
For comparison some other stuff coming out of Lombok these days.

Now here we have something relevant! I agree this one is as extensively inlaid as mine, and looks like the same craftmanship! This is relevent material to compare! Thanks for posting this one!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
I stated my opinion about this item in the previous post and have nothing more to add to this thread.

OK. Thanks!
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Old 23rd July 2013, 10:04 PM   #82
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To blur the discussion maybe even more.
Here is another Pedang from the same auction.

Lombok or Sumatra ? and why ?
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Old 23rd July 2013, 11:22 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
To blur the discussion maybe even more.
Here is another Pedang from the same auction.

Lombok or Sumatra ? and why ?


Bali/Lombok I guess according the decorations at the scabbard.
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Old 24th July 2013, 07:22 AM   #84
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Of course these observations are only indications but altogether they seem to point to Lombok.

The squarish hilt is Lombok style.
The motifs on the silver resembles those seen on other Lombok weapons.
A fuller and no intricate pamor are features often seen on Lombok.

Michael

PS Charles, mail me if you want to further discuss any of your own pedang/kelewang.
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Old 30th June 2014, 01:28 PM   #85
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By pure chance looked through this thread (I suppose it's not relevant anymore; as I understand Maurice has sold this Pedang), and have found an interesting detail.

It seems to have a twistcore pamor, which means a couple of things:

almost surely

A) the blade (if old) is of Lombok origin;

B) the fullers are not original or at least not originally intended;

C) the inlays are not original.
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Old 30th June 2014, 10:41 PM   #86
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Always relevant Gustav. Knowledge doesn't really have a time limit.

We see this sort of thing fairly frequently. People do not want to believe that it could be recent, but in my experience it nearly always is, especially so when it is beautiful and perfect, because this sort of ornamentation does not wear well.
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