Tawdry Tulwar. - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2009, 08:08 PM

First of all, Norman, my congratulations to your daughter as well!!!! and to you, you deserve to be unabashedly proud!!!

Great contributions on this trusty tulwar, and its great to see Jens' example as a wonderful benchmark. With the comparable markings it would seem that this tulwar is likely Rajasthan regions and the 1870's into latter part of the century seems quite plausible. If I'm not mistaken, the dotted script on Jens' example suggests Bikaner armoury, which is in Rajasthan.

The interesting symbol enclosed by the sickle marks seems to recall the same practice used by European makers on thier blades. There is still a long way to go in trying to understand the more temporal possibilities in many of the stamped symbols on these blades beyond simple commercial or inventory uses.

David is quite on target noting the Mole blades, and by the 1880's it seems that this producer from Birmingham (working in contract with Wilkinson) was supplying blades to India for the Raj. I believe the cavalry units were issued blades in either 31" or 33" increments, one for Bengal the other Madras, I cannot recall exact details. The blades were more like the standard hollow ground forms and I have seen them, by Mole, mounted in the three bar (Gothic) type hilts similar to the British M1829 light cavalry.

I have seen tulwars by Mole (as noted) which seemed cast white metal hilts from latter 19th century, supplying cavalry troopers of the Native regiments.

There was an outfitter, J. Bourne & Sons, who produced M1796 style stirrup hilted light cavalry sabres, and in research found that one unit that for certain used these was the 13th Bengal Lancers (research with provenanced comparable example so marked).

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 26th March 2009, 10:26 PM

Hi Jens,
Careful use of the Dremel seems to work very well, I'm always amazed when people take a file to roughly sharpen a blade rather than finish it properly with a steel or a stone. The 'double-sided' steel on your Tulwar is very intriguing, I do of course know of constructing a blade using soft and hard steels Viking, Japanese etc., but I'm at a bit of a loss as to the exact thinking behind wootz/mono side by side unless it is purely decorative or an exhibition of the swordsmith's skill. If you know more! There appears to be two small fullers on one side of the blade only? Very unusual. Thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Jim,
Yep real proud and to cap it all she and two others appear to have the best results in the year out of 270 students. I don't know where she gets it from certainly not me, must be the wife, Damn!

Many thanks for the info on the British connection, I have to think that the multitude of differing/combinations of marks on Indian weaponry convey more perhaps than simply "Made In? by XYZ". Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th March 2009, 05:06 PM

Atlantia,
In this case it was easy to get a flat surface with Dremel 511 - I just followed the edge, and as the 511 is not a grinding wheel it was no problem. In Norman's case it could be a problem, but I think that if he takes it easy and does not press too hard, it will work
How many 511's I used? I don't remember, maybe about 6-8.
No I did not finish with anything, I only used the 511.

Norman,
The right side of the blade has one broad fuller, not very deep, and on the other side of the blade there are two very narrow fullers.
I don't know why they made blades like this, maybe to show the skill of the weapon smith, but I think these blades are as strong as any other blade.
Jens

Norman McCormick · 28th March 2009, 06:33 PM

Hi,
Just a quick update. Using a hot air gun to remove the hilt made it a quick and easy job, five minutes and it was done no mess. The scratches, gouges and grinder marks are so deep in places that on the 6 inches I attempted I had to resort to a selection of files, fine to ultra fine, to make any progress. I also used some fine paper but I've still a way to go. Despite the problems progress is being made. Thanks to all for their input.
Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 28th March 2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Atlantia,
In this case it was easy to get a flat surface with Dremel 511 - I just followed the edge, and as the 511 is not a grinding wheel it was no problem. In Norman's case it could be a problem, but I think that if he takes it easy and does not press too hard, it will work
How many 511's I used? I don't remember, maybe about 6-8.
No I did not finish with anything, I only used the 511.

Norman,
The right side of the blade has one broad fuller, not very deep, and on the other side of the blade there are two very narrow fullers.
I don't know why they made blades like this, maybe to show the skill of the weapon smith, but I think these blades are as strong as any other blade.
Jens

Jens.

Thanks for the tips bud! I'll have to add some 511s to my dremel box 'O' bits!

Norman.

Looking good mate, silicon carbide paper on a block and files are the method I've alweays used. Slow as hell but forgiving of mistakes.
Hmmm, hot air gun!! Good call! I might have to do my pair of bikiner Tulwars soon

Gene.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th March 2009, 05:09 PM

The funny thing is, that sometimes the 'lashes' are on the outside and sometimes on the inside. I don't know why that is, maybe it was the smith's decision, or maybe there is another reason for this.

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2009, 06:00 AM

Hi Jens,
Markings are always a puzzle (as we know!!

) . These markings are derived from early marks believed from N. Italian blademaking centers and termed 'sickle marks'. These migrated with Italian trade, probably out of Genoa, and were widely copied in other centers, especially Solingen.
The native bladesmiths in India, among others, used interpretations of these markings as a mark of quality, and probably, as you note, applied the mark in whatever fashion they chose. It seems these sickle marks are almost standard on the blades of Afghan paluaors.

Beautiful pattern in that blade!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2009, 02:54 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the explanation about the sickle marks, now we only have a few details left

- the meaning of the rest of the stamps.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 21st December 2011, 02:35 PM

Hi Gene,

Sorry for the late answer, and merry Christmas to you all – while I still remember it

.

I don’t know if it is a Dremel 511, on the thing is says Dremel Multi, so I suppose that is what it is

.

I used abrasive buffs fine 512 S – but before you start I would recommend that you get a handful of these abrasive buffs as the steel is very hard, and the buffs relatively soft in order not to scratch the blade.

Jens

PS I have not read all the mails, so should I have answered the question, the merry Christmas still stands.

28th March 2009, 06:33 PM	#34
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Just a quick update. Using a hot air gun to remove the hilt made it a quick and easy job, five minutes and it was done no mess. The scratches, gouges and grinder marks are so deep in places that on the 6 inches I attempted I had to resort to a selection of files, fine to ultra fine, to make any progress. I also used some fine paper but I've still a way to go. Despite the problems progress is being made. Thanks to all for their input. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

29th March 2009, 05:09 PM	#36
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	The funny thing is, that sometimes the 'lashes' are on the outside and sometimes on the inside. I don't know why that is, maybe it was the smith's decision, or maybe there is another reason for this. Attached Images

26th March 2009, 08:08 PM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	First of all, Norman, my congratulations to your daughter as well!!!! and to you, you deserve to be unabashedly proud!!! Great contributions on this trusty tulwar, and its great to see Jens' example as a wonderful benchmark. With the comparable markings it would seem that this tulwar is likely Rajasthan regions and the 1870's into latter part of the century seems quite plausible. If I'm not mistaken, the dotted script on Jens' example suggests Bikaner armoury, which is in Rajasthan. The interesting symbol enclosed by the sickle marks seems to recall the same practice used by European makers on thier blades. There is still a long way to go in trying to understand the more temporal possibilities in many of the stamped symbols on these blades beyond simple commercial or inventory uses. David is quite on target noting the Mole blades, and by the 1880's it seems that this producer from Birmingham (working in contract with Wilkinson) was supplying blades to India for the Raj. I believe the cavalry units were issued blades in either 31" or 33" increments, one for Bengal the other Madras, I cannot recall exact details. The blades were more like the standard hollow ground forms and I have seen them, by Mole, mounted in the three bar (Gothic) type hilts similar to the British M1829 light cavalry. I have seen tulwars by Mole (as noted) which seemed cast white metal hilts from latter 19th century, supplying cavalry troopers of the Native regiments. There was an outfitter, J. Bourne & Sons, who produced M1796 style stirrup hilted light cavalry sabres, and in research found that one unit that for certain used these was the 13th Bengal Lancers (research with provenanced comparable example so marked). All best regards, Jim

26th March 2009, 10:26 PM	#32
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Jens, Careful use of the Dremel seems to work very well, I'm always amazed when people take a file to roughly sharpen a blade rather than finish it properly with a steel or a stone. The 'double-sided' steel on your Tulwar is very intriguing, I do of course know of constructing a blade using soft and hard steels Viking, Japanese etc., but I'm at a bit of a loss as to the exact thinking behind wootz/mono side by side unless it is purely decorative or an exhibition of the swordsmith's skill. If you know more! There appears to be two small fullers on one side of the blade only? Very unusual. Thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Hi Jim, Yep real proud and to cap it all she and two others appear to have the best results in the year out of 270 students. I don't know where she gets it from certainly not me, must be the wife, Damn! Many thanks for the info on the British connection, I have to think that the multitude of differing/combinations of marks on Indian weaponry convey more perhaps than simply "Made In? by XYZ". Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

27th March 2009, 05:06 PM	#33
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Atlantia, In this case it was easy to get a flat surface with Dremel 511 - I just followed the edge, and as the 511 is not a grinding wheel it was no problem. In Norman's case it could be a problem, but I think that if he takes it easy and does not press too hard, it will work How many 511's I used? I don't remember, maybe about 6-8. No I did not finish with anything, I only used the 511. Norman, The right side of the blade has one broad fuller, not very deep, and on the other side of the blade there are two very narrow fullers. I don't know why they made blades like this, maybe to show the skill of the weapon smith, but I think these blades are as strong as any other blade. Jens

30th March 2009, 06:00 AM	#37
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Jens, Markings are always a puzzle (as we know!! ) . These markings are derived from early marks believed from N. Italian blademaking centers and termed 'sickle marks'. These migrated with Italian trade, probably out of Genoa, and were widely copied in other centers, especially Solingen. The native bladesmiths in India, among others, used interpretations of these markings as a mark of quality, and probably, as you note, applied the mark in whatever fashion they chose. It seems these sickle marks are almost standard on the blades of Afghan paluaors. Beautiful pattern in that blade!!! All the best, Jim

30th March 2009, 02:54 PM	#38
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Jim, Thanks for the explanation about the sickle marks, now we only have a few details left - the meaning of the rest of the stamps. Jens

21st December 2011, 02:35 PM	#39
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Gene, Sorry for the late answer, and merry Christmas to you all – while I still remember it . I don’t know if it is a Dremel 511, on the thing is says Dremel Multi, so I suppose that is what it is . I used abrasive buffs fine 512 S – but before you start I would recommend that you get a handful of these abrasive buffs as the steel is very hard, and the buffs relatively soft in order not to scratch the blade. Jens PS I have not read all the mails, so should I have answered the question, the merry Christmas still stands.