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Old 29th July 2019, 08:59 AM   #31
Kubur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfenoid13
I am also surprised how all the respected and valued veteran members here easily get mad and argue for such a petty topic


If I'm in the lot, I'm definitively flattered!

I wasn't mad but let's say more disapointed because "the other member" is precisely a respected and valued veteran member...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfenoid13
this Yatagan is indeed Greek in origin. Of course the maker and owner was probably Ottoman Turkish.


Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
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Old 30th July 2019, 06:07 AM   #32
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Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
[/QUOTE]
The Greek is in region where this Ottoman Turkish owned and used his Yataghan. I am from Bulgaria, so is many generations of family, however I am not Bulgarian but rather Turkish. One of the many hundreds of thousand of Turks who were left behind when Ottoman Empire lost Bulgaria. Same happened with Greece. Bulgaria have tons of Yataghans , I have yet to see one Owens by a Slavic name, they are all inscribed to be owned by Turkish names, so are the makers. Same is true for “most” Greek yatagans too.
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Old 30th November 2019, 12:06 AM   #33
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This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:20 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”


Very nice Greek name...
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:47 AM   #35
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Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc.


What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product.


How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete.

Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine.

Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:16 PM   #36
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If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.


I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...


To be really honest with you if i refer to the yataghan posted at the very begining, i have to admit that it could be Greek also because very little survived from the original hilt... I still believe that some forum members have some problem to identify Turkish weapons, see post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24813
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Old 30th November 2019, 08:01 PM   #39
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Well, if you think that all things Ottoman are Turkish, that would greatly simplify your provenancing :-)
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