Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd February 2013, 04:57 PM   #1
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default semi-dual edged badik?

Hi guys,

Another puzzling thing was this semi-dualled edge badek / badik (was it really a badik, after all?). I thought badek was always a single-edged weapon, but then I might be wrong.

The top edge was blunt actually, until it reaches its 3/4 length (from the bottom) then the sharp edge started till the tip.

No pamor traced. The hilt and scabbard were Bugis-like, but I really don't know it's rightful origin.

Any info / thoughts are welcomed.

Thanks
Attached Images
   
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2013, 10:57 PM   #2
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Hi Moshah,

I would call it a badik. Here one from my collection with a real double edge, very sharp. Do you have etched it? I've never seen a badik without pamor.

Regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2013, 12:30 AM   #3
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Hi detlef,

Yes indeed yours was also double-edged.

I was in the thinking that mine could be something from the Phillipines, as I never saw anything like this. Now I've seen yours and somewhere back I think Artzi has sold one of the likes (pix).

It was etched via the coconut juice way and I've failed to see any traces of pamor there on my piece.
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2013, 01:29 AM   #4
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,455
Default

Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2013, 02:01 AM   #5
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai


Hi Kai,

From my observation, the besi used was similar to the type that we always see in kerises. Perhaps no nickel contents, hence no pamor.

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang (pix) which is not present on the badik of question here. This is why I was not prepare to expect that it was a Malay badik...
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 07:40 AM   #6
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai



Hi Kai,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break? I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

Thanks for the input, kai. Really appreciate it...
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 11:33 AM   #7
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,455
Default

Hello Moshah,

Quote:
if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break?

I wouldn't worry (unless one tries to abuse it as a sharpened pry bar); competent differential hardening can go a long way. If used incorrectly, the weak point (for most of the personal sidearms throughout the archipelago) would most likely be the hilt IMVHO.


Quote:
I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

I'm sure there were a lot of local sources; secondary iron deposits are not rare in wet climates.


Quote:
if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

These are laminated (on a microscopic level) and traditional. There may be some blades made from imported European steel hiding within the wesi/besi malela category but usually you will see some forging lines suggesting extensive local forge work regardless of the primary source.

Regards,
Kai

Last edited by kai : 6th February 2013 at 08:50 AM. Reason: changing "use" into "abuse"
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 02:18 PM   #8
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Thanks for the elaborated explanation Kai...

Hmm I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik...
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 04:06 PM   #9
CharlesS
Member
 
CharlesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,672
Default

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?
CharlesS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 06:10 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?


It's maybe possible but I don't think so. Soon as I have better light I will post some pictures from the blade.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 06:31 PM   #11
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

I think it is quite unlikely Detlef's was a cut down pedang, as the fuller length would not make any sense, to be that short a fuller for a longer blade.

Definitely there were traces of pamor as well, on detlef's badik.
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2013, 06:54 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshah
I think it is quite unlikely Detlef's was a cut down pedang, as the fuller length would not make any sense, to be that short a fuller for a longer blade.

Definitely there were traces of pamor as well, on detlef's badik.


Agree with you Moshah regarding the fuller.

The blade have a very fine pamor, unfortunately it's very dark etched so it's difficult to see.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2013, 08:46 AM   #13
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,455
Default

Hello Moshah,

Quote:
I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik...

Don't worry - this seems to be a rare and genuine variant: I have another one and with at least 3 extant examples this makes a pattern (rather than a headache ). If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

The typical Bugis badik from Sulawesi tends to have either a relatively narrow blade optimized for stabbing or a blade with fat belly adding more meat towards the tip for slashing moves. Both types tend to have a fairly thick back of the blade (as usual for most SE Asian daggers). I have seen several with partial back edge like in Detlef's example though. Some appear to be recycled pedang/etc. blades but quite a few are obviously intentional designs like already pointed out for Detlef's badik.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2013, 09:06 AM   #14
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,455
Default

Hello Moshah,

Quote:
The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang <snip>

I'd be inclined to place those pieces with integral bolster into the large sewar/sewaih family (including tumbok lada, karih, etc.). This family of blades seems to have Sumatran/Straits roots rather than the badik probably originating from S Sulawesi.

As you know, not that long ago, people used to freely move back and forth between Sumatra and W Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2013, 01:44 PM   #15
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.



Dear Kai,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade. If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Of course, I am speaking with my limited knowledge in Badik, Bugis arms and socioculture, and limited experience too...
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2013, 07:43 AM   #16
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,455
Default

Hello Moshah,

Quote:
Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?


Quote:
The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade.

I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard. Minor sidenote: the wood of the stem looks N Malay to me FWIW...


Quote:
If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Considering that the badik took the place of the keris as personal companion or alter ego in Bugis society, one would believe that there should be a good reason (i. e. adat & hormat) for anything relating to a badik. Hopefully, our few Bugis members could elaborate on the presence of wesi malela in S Sulawesi and what it might signify?


The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2013, 03:44 PM   #17
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?

I always be extra careful on whatever the local seller will tell me. Not that I am so skeptical about them, but most of the time you either get a purported fairytale or misleading info. In this case, I do not think the seller would have much to say about it. However I think the scabbard and hilt would be a local commissioned, and look new even to untrained eyes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard.

Definitely, Kai, even with antique scabbard a closer look on the fitment is essential before one can say it's a real package. Many people travel around the globe and mix-marriage wherever they settled down, and I believe that also would happen to sheathed weapons of the old days...



Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Really? I thought the scabbard and hilt of the one sold by Artzi was a Bugis one...However Artzi's example was the closest to my badik's design @ dhapur, and I would love to know from where it comes from...

BTW, would love to see your badik as well, Kai..
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2013, 05:08 PM   #18
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default it safely arrives...

Hi guys,

Received it today, safely.

I would say the hilt and sheath looks decently new - not a slight of dark, blackish hue that usually takes place on antique hilts. Unless it was clean thoroughly, I stand to be corrected. On the other hand, they were made out of nice wood plot and of a considerable good workmanship, it seems.

Apparently the shallow fuller can be clearly seen, as the slight concave runs from the first inch of the base, straight (and tapered) to the tip. The partial double-edge started a little bit further from the mid blade towards the tip.

The blade was really smooth to the touch. As I ran my finger along the blade from the base towards the tip through the mid-section, the feel was almost velvety. I know some Malay keris with this same attributes and it is locally coined as "besi baldu" - means velvety iron. Perhaps the absence of pamor contributes to this feel but I do have few non-pamorred kerises, and it feel nothing like this. Except one, old Sumatran / Palembang sepokal which shares this sensation of touch...

Kai, I've tried to ask the seller from where it comes from but as I've predicted - to no avail.

So guys, is the blade a Bugis, a Malay or perhaps a Sumatran?
Attached Images
      
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2013, 03:17 PM   #19
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

We're still in the grey, are we?

BTW Kai, does this badik resembles that one of yours?
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 10:17 AM   #20
DAHenkel
Member
 
DAHenkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 125
Default

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.
DAHenkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 04:45 PM   #21
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Hi Dave,

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHenkel
This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.


Seeing one without pamor make me think it is a Malayan all right, but with limited knowledge I can't bring myself to jump into conclusion in the very beginning. Some more I failed to see (google..sic..) a Bugis badik without a pamor, which adds to the skepticism. But when the item reached my hand, I think the quality of the besi baja would justify the absence of pamor, and the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik). So then I believe it is all right a badik.

Then your input and Kai's make me believe now that it is a Kelantanese / N.Malayan. Good lord!

I've heard that Kelantanese refers to these kind as "bodek" or "pisau bugis"...and the one with the "mar" was a "badik". Since Kelantan and Pattani generally have their own keris and weaponology culture that is unique to itself, I think their badik is their badik and that's that. But definitely the similarities to the sewar's family was there, indeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHenkel
BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.


I am afraid that I do not have the picture of the scabbard, as this badik was not mine....
However I know the owner and would be happy to tell you who is it, if you really want to know. He's quite a figure in the Kelantan keris scene...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHenkel
Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.


OMG there's come the trouble Well, sorry but I have credited Artzi for it beforehand, because I don't know of the nice badik's whereabout already...

For a Peninsular piece, we hardly get to see any of the likes around so much. Not even here in Malaysia. Were the Kelantanese of the old days are more keen on the badiks with the "mar" type (i.e badik sepat etc) so that they did not make much of badiks with the design like yours and mine?

Last edited by Moshah : 14th February 2013 at 11:01 PM. Reason: some spelling error
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 11:10 PM   #22
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshah
...(when) the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik).


This is what I meant. The first box from left indicates the fuller starts, and the second box was the start of the partial edge, and the fuller still continues till half an inch before the tip.
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2013, 08:32 PM   #23
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHenkel
BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.


..anyway the scabbard for that badik would look like this example, as I recollected. Is this a typical Kelantanese badik sheath?

I guess the badik here is Kelantanese as well, with a mysterious kuningan that looks like a mixture of swassa in the pamor. But I though swassa or any other alloy couldn't mix up with the besi baja, so I really don't know what it is...
Attached Images
   
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2013, 09:45 AM   #24
T. Koch
Member
 
T. Koch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mother North
Posts: 185
Default

That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt.


Cheers, - Thor
T. Koch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2013, 11:19 AM   #25
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn.

It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things...

And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart...
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2013, 03:25 PM   #26
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Beautiful badik! And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2013, 07:20 PM   #27
T. Koch
Member
 
T. Koch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mother North
Posts: 185
Default

Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones.

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do.

Sweet looking badik regardless!


All the best, - Thor
T. Koch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2013, 07:59 PM   #28
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Hello Thor, you know what I would say!?
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2013, 08:10 PM   #29
T. Koch
Member
 
T. Koch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mother North
Posts: 185
Default

Hahaha, I do, I do - but hear me out bro! If you look at the dots going across the bottom of the hilt, I just can't see any way that you can align this row with the TIZ running lengthwise along the inside of the tusk? Unless the above hilt is only like 3 - 4 cm long, the direction doesn't fit.

It's totally different from the badik hilt you posted recently. In yours the hilt aligns up nicely with the curve of a hippopotamus tusk and also remember - I agreed with you on that one!
T. Koch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2013, 10:42 PM   #30
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,736
Default

Maybe Moshah can enlighten us? What he think it is? And how long is the hilt?
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:44 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.