A firangi blade or??

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2005, 05:15 PM

This is from a firangi blade, but from where is the supposed to come, does anyone know?
I write ‘supposed’ as the blade has a ricasso, so maybe the blade is an Indian ‘copy’ blade, and not European at all.

Rick · 25th September 2005, 06:51 PM

Embossing , quite unusual !
Are there any marks around the periphery of the lettering to indicate this marking was a stamp Jens ?

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2005, 09:34 PM

Hi Rick, oh yes indeed, most unusual, but I must admit that the embossing is due to my bad photograph. Also, I was a bit surprised myself when I saw the picture, but the letters are stamped into the metal.

Karni, do you have any comments on this?
Do you know how common it was to make 'copy' blades of the European ones, and why, as the Indian blades were exported in a great number?

Jens

Rick · 25th September 2005, 09:41 PM

Oh , so they're stamped in marks !
They appear to be just the opposite .
Surely fooled my eye .

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2005, 03:58 PM

Hi Jens,
These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west.

During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three.

The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades

and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings.
How 'bout a picture of the sword?
All the best,
Jim

Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !!

and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!!

-Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2005, 04:50 PM

Hi Jim,
If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold.
BTW does anyone recognise the mark?

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2005, 05:27 PM

WOW! Thatsa some firangi Jens!!!

As always, incredible examples you show. What is the 'mark' you're referring to? Is the floral motif the lotus?
Thank you for posting the picture, its a beauty.
All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2005, 07:45 PM

Hi Jim, the mark I refer to is the mark on the blade - the stamp. Now that we are at it, how come that these stamps are mostly made twice, one under each other - and that it is so, that on the first mark you mostly see the first half of it, and on the scond mark, the last half of it?

Battara · 26th September 2005, 08:31 PM

Crap....drooled on the keyboard again.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2005, 09:23 PM

The animals could be hunting dogs. In many cultures the dogs ability to be sent out and find the quarry has led to the dog being used as an auspicious symbol even if the dog was not a domestic pet as in the modern sense. They look like dogs to me anyway. Tim

Aqtai · 26th September 2005, 10:32 PM

Congratulations Jens, that is stunning!

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2005, 02:12 AM

Battara, me too!!! Think we're gonna have a bunch of shorted out keyboards!!!

Jens,
That is most likely a Solingen trade blade, as they were typically using Spanish names and mottos at this time in the 18th century. It would be difficult to assign to a particular maker unless there was a key marking separate on the blade somewhere, but most of the time they only carried these spurious inscriptions. These blades seem to date from Solingen from latter 17th to early 18th century, and the Spanish name thing seems to account for a lot of the blades found on Scottish swords of this period too.
Even if we can match the name it is unlikely going to be that of the maker of the blade unfortunately.

This sword is incredible....centerfold material!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 27th September 2005, 05:18 PM

Thanks for the mails, yes it is a rather nice firangi, and there is no reason to show the blade, as the stamp and the hilt is by far the most interesting.
Tim, you are right, it can be dogs, that is why I put the questionmark.

ksbhati · 3rd October 2005, 10:44 PM

Hi Jens,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I have been very busy lately and dont get much time to visit. Umm though it was not uncommon to copy european blades, it was relatively rare to mark them with english/latin letters (basically because the smiths who would be producing them did not know a word of English and you would be able to spot the copy invariably). This does not mean that they were not marked as such, but only that it was relatively un-common.

To comment on some of the other questions raised...and I would be surmising here to some extent so bear with me. Good quality wootz blade production was dwindling sometime around the late eighteenth early nineteenth century. Also, around this time good quality european blades were more easily available, what with the thriving east west trade (We were well into the colonial era by now). There is no doubt that the european blades were of good quality and very hardy. Also, to some extent it may have been fashionable to own one.

I would like to mention that I have seen some of the most exquisite Mughal/Rajput era sword hilts with old 'Genoa' blades. These blades were curved and had a shape like the usual Tulwar blades?? I was really surprised as the quality of the Hilts along with the matching scabbard mounts were of astonishing quality and undoubtedly from the seventeenth century or earlier. I would normally have expected the hilts to be mounted on the highest quality wootz blades...but they werent?? I have seen at least four examples and all have old 'Genoa' blades. So undoubtedly highly quality european blades were prized by the Indians even though good quality wootz was available here

. I wonder if anybody has any views on 'Genoa' blades in Indian Hilts...has anyone else seen any?

Best regards,

Karni

25th September 2005, 05:15 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	A firangi blade or?? This is from a firangi blade, but from where is the supposed to come, does anyone know? I write ‘supposed’ as the blade has a ricasso, so maybe the blade is an Indian ‘copy’ blade, and not European at all. Attached Images

25th September 2005, 06:51 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Cast Blade ? Embossing , quite unusual ! Are there any marks around the periphery of the lettering to indicate this marking was a stamp Jens ?

26th September 2005, 04:50 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Jim, If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold. BTW does anyone recognise the mark? Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 26th September 2005 at 05:08 PM.

26th September 2005, 10:32 PM	#11
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Wow! Congratulations Jens, that is stunning!

25th September 2005, 09:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, oh yes indeed, most unusual, but I must admit that the embossing is due to my bad photograph. Also, I was a bit surprised myself when I saw the picture, but the letters are stamped into the metal. Karni, do you have any comments on this? Do you know how common it was to make 'copy' blades of the European ones, and why, as the Indian blades were exported in a great number? Jens

25th September 2005, 09:41 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Oh , so they're stamped in marks ! They appear to be just the opposite . Surely fooled my eye .

26th September 2005, 03:58 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Jens, These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west. During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three. The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings. How 'bout a picture of the sword? All the best, Jim Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !! and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!! -Jim

26th September 2005, 05:27 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	WOW! Thatsa some firangi Jens!!! As always, incredible examples you show. What is the 'mark' you're referring to? Is the floral motif the lotus? Thank you for posting the picture, its a beauty. All the best, Jim

26th September 2005, 07:45 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Jim, the mark I refer to is the mark on the blade - the stamp. Now that we are at it, how come that these stamps are mostly made twice, one under each other - and that it is so, that on the first mark you mostly see the first half of it, and on the scond mark, the last half of it?

26th September 2005, 08:31 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Crap....drooled on the keyboard again.

26th September 2005, 09:23 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The animals could be hunting dogs. In many cultures the dogs ability to be sent out and find the quarry has led to the dog being used as an auspicious symbol even if the dog was not a domestic pet as in the modern sense. They look like dogs to me anyway. Tim

27th September 2005, 02:12 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Battara, me too!!! Think we're gonna have a bunch of shorted out keyboards!!! Jens, That is most likely a Solingen trade blade, as they were typically using Spanish names and mottos at this time in the 18th century. It would be difficult to assign to a particular maker unless there was a key marking separate on the blade somewhere, but most of the time they only carried these spurious inscriptions. These blades seem to date from Solingen from latter 17th to early 18th century, and the Spanish name thing seems to account for a lot of the blades found on Scottish swords of this period too. Even if we can match the name it is unlikely going to be that of the maker of the blade unfortunately. This sword is incredible....centerfold material!!! All the best, Jim

27th September 2005, 05:18 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thanks for the mails, yes it is a rather nice firangi, and there is no reason to show the blade, as the stamp and the hilt is by far the most interesting. Tim, you are right, it can be dogs, that is why I put the questionmark.

3rd October 2005, 10:44 PM	#14
ksbhati Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Rajasthan, INDIA Posts: 25	Hi Jens, Sorry for the delay in responding. I have been very busy lately and dont get much time to visit. Umm though it was not uncommon to copy european blades, it was relatively rare to mark them with english/latin letters (basically because the smiths who would be producing them did not know a word of English and you would be able to spot the copy invariably). This does not mean that they were not marked as such, but only that it was relatively un-common. To comment on some of the other questions raised...and I would be surmising here to some extent so bear with me. Good quality wootz blade production was dwindling sometime around the late eighteenth early nineteenth century. Also, around this time good quality european blades were more easily available, what with the thriving east west trade (We were well into the colonial era by now). There is no doubt that the european blades were of good quality and very hardy. Also, to some extent it may have been fashionable to own one. I would like to mention that I have seen some of the most exquisite Mughal/Rajput era sword hilts with old 'Genoa' blades. These blades were curved and had a shape like the usual Tulwar blades?? I was really surprised as the quality of the Hilts along with the matching scabbard mounts were of astonishing quality and undoubtedly from the seventeenth century or earlier. I would normally have expected the hilts to be mounted on the highest quality wootz blades...but they werent?? I have seen at least four examples and all have old 'Genoa' blades. So undoubtedly highly quality european blades were prized by the Indians even though good quality wootz was available here . I wonder if anybody has any views on 'Genoa' blades in Indian Hilts...has anyone else seen any? Best regards, Karni