Moro Kampilan for comment!!!

philkid · 2nd August 2005, 05:00 PM

Hi, I have here a very rusted kampilan which was consigned to me by the owner. I have doubts though about weather it is a recently made kampilan or an old one(the owner told me it is old). I just wanna confirm with you guys of the validity of this sword. I had this doubt when I cleaned the blade(of course with the owners permission), I noticed the upper layer of the blade got removed together with the rust as shown on the pics below. The owner told me he buried it on 1990's when the Philippine government were at war with Muslim rebels and terrorist of fear that soldiers might take. Also, all of the kampilans I have handled before has 2 holes on the handguard or is fitted with iron. But this one has none. Any comment + or - would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Ian · 2nd August 2005, 08:24 PM

Hi philkid:

I won't comment on the authenticity, or otherwise, of this sword but will just make a few observations. The extensive corrosion to the blade is a direct result of burying it and allowing moisture, acidity and other harsh chemical reactions to seriously damage it. This makes evaluation of the blade's age very difficult. [It would also greatly reduce my interest in purchasing such a sword and the amount I would pay for it

-- that's a personal opinion, of course, and others may feel differently.]

The relatively well preserved hilt of wood and brass seems out of keeping with the state of the blade, but it is possible that the hilt was better wrapped or preserved and so survived burial in a better state. It might also be a recent replacement for a damaged original. You should be able to tell if this is a recent replacement by looking where the blade enters the hilt for any recent fixation with epoxy, pitch, etc. The absence of an iron handguard, or the holes where one once was, is not a very good indicator of age because some of the older ones did not have such a guard (or the holes). Newer hilts generally lack those holes, as you point out.

The use of brass on the hilt, and perhaps the presence of inlaid brass dots at the end of the blade, are 20th C. features IMHO. Brass on the hilt especially tends to be a mid- to late-20th C feature, perhaps also a little before WWII, but I have not seen this style of hilt on a Kampilan 100+ years old. The hilt suggests Maranao work to me.

Overall, I don't think this blade is much older than the 1930s, and the hilt could be more recent than that. The sword has suffered harsh treatment which makes further identification difficult. Hope this is helpful. You may well get different opinions from other forumites.

Ian.

Bill · 3rd August 2005, 12:55 AM

The spike on the tip looks to have been all file work & a little bit further back than normal. In order to let the spike protrude, the section towards the tip was filed.

VANDOO · 3rd August 2005, 02:04 AM

THE WORKMANSHIP IS NICE, THE TWO FANCY SILVER FITTINGS ON THE HANDLE AND THE FANCY BRASS OR GOLD EYE ARE NOT IN KEEPING WITH THE USUAL OLD KAMPILLIAN DECORATIONS. I HAD BID ON ONE WITH A FANCY ENGRAVED DESIGN ON A METAL PLATE ON ITS GAURD ON EBAY WITHIN THE LAST YEAR BUT FAILED TO GET IT. ANOTHER MEMBER GOT IT PERHAPS HE WILL ENLIGHTEN US AS TO IF IT IS NEW OR OLD. I HAVE SEEN THAT TYPE OF DAMMAGE ON ANTIQUED BLADES FROM BORNEO, THEY WERE TREATED WITH STRONG ACID WHICH RUINS A NICE BLADE WEATHER OLD OR NEW. IF YOU AQUIRE ONE IN FUTURE YOU MIGHT TRY SOME LITMUS PAPER ON IT BEFORE YOU CLEAN IT(PUT A LITTLE WATER ON A CRUDDY SPOT AND MIX IT AROUND WITH A BRUSH AND THEN APPLY THE PAPER). IF THE LITMUS TURNS FAST YOU CAN BE PRETTY SURE ACID WAS USED. YOU STILL MIGHT TRY IT JUST IN CASE SOME ACID REMAINS. THE ART OF ANTIQUING SWORDS AND OTHER ARTEFACTS IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD IS VERY GOOD AND OFTEN VERY DIFFICULT TO DETECT. THE MUSEUMS USED TO LOOK ON WOODCARVINGS AND WICKER WORK FROM NEW GUINEA AND OTHER REGIONS FOR THE SHELLS OF A CERTIAN TYPE OF BUG TO DETERMINE IF IT WAS AUTHENTIC. THE PRODUCERS FOUND OUT SO STARTED MAKEING SURE TO LEAVE THEIR WORK IN A SUITABLE ENVIORNMENT FOR A SUFFICENT TIME TO ALLOW THE BUGS TO DO THEIR WORK. CARVEINGS ARE ALSO SMOKED STAINED WITH VARIOUS CONCOCTIONS AND BURIED, MOST ANYTHING ORGANIC CAN BE EASILY ANTIQUED IF YOU KNOW HOW. THE CHINESE ARE THE MOST ADEPT AT MAKEING PATINAS ON BRONZE AND BRASS ITEMS.
I LIKE KAMPILLIANS AND DON'T MIND GETTING A MORE RECENT WELL MADE ONE IF ITS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE BUT WOULD PREFER TO HAVE ITS CORRECT AGE AND A UNDAMMAGED BLADE.

Federico · 5th August 2005, 12:43 AM

There are 19th century kampilans with metal fittings, such as bands as this one displays, and most definitely brass dot inlay existed well before the 20th century. However, at least in regards to metal fittings, they are very very rare, and usually on very opulent pieces, such as ivory hilted kampilan.

As Ian noted the rough blade and fresh hilt are always scary signs. Compared to metal, wood is nowhere near as durable, hence all the re-hilting we see in older pieces. To see a blade that is really worn, but a hilt that even if cleaned and restored is near pristine raises alot of questons. Blade thickness can be a clue. If it is really thin, then it could be a replacement.

Spunjer · 5th August 2005, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Blade thickness can be a clue. If it is really thin, then it could be a replacement.

federico,
what would you consider as thin blade, say, on a kampilan?

Federico · 5th August 2005, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

federico,
what would you consider as thin blade, say, on a kampilan?

Well if its an 1/8" at the base, or if there is very little distal taper, etc... More or less looking for that cut out vs drawn out feel/look. Dunno if that makes sense or not.

Spunjer · 5th August 2005, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Well if its an 1/8" at the base, or if there is very little distal taper, etc... More or less looking for that cut out vs drawn out feel/look. Dunno if that makes sense or not.

okay, i see what you're saying.

as for this statement:

Quote:

As Ian noted the rough blade and fresh hilt are always scary signs. Compared to metal, wood is nowhere near as durable, hence all the re-hilting we see in older pieces. To see a blade that is really worn, but a hilt that even if cleaned and restored is near pristine raises alot of questons

that's spot on. makes a lot of sense...

Rick · 5th August 2005, 02:23 PM

Agreed with Federico about distal taper . Both of my old Kampilan taper from a strong quarter inch at the hilt to a sixteenth at the tip .
They both show very good temper (flex) .

Bill · 5th August 2005, 03:33 PM

Hi Philkid, How did you clean the blade, did you use chemicals, like a paint stripper? What else did the owner say about the history.

philkid · 5th August 2005, 08:16 PM

Hi Bill, I just used WD40 and #1000 fine sandpaper. It does well with my other krises and kampilans but with this one it does not seem right. He didn't say much about the sword because of the language difference. We are both Filipinos but we do not have the same dialect. But what I'm really after is his kris with original ivory pommel. I'll post it if ever I get lucky. Does anyone of you guys have one? Can you post? Anyway thanks for the comments. Really appreciate it. Thanks.

Spunjer · 5th August 2005, 08:51 PM

hi philkid,

here's the link to my latest kampilan:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=kampilan

here's another link from the old EEWRS with choke pictures. enjoy...

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000953.html

2nd August 2005, 08:24 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Too bad it was buried ... Hi philkid: I won't comment on the authenticity, or otherwise, of this sword but will just make a few observations. The extensive corrosion to the blade is a direct result of burying it and allowing moisture, acidity and other harsh chemical reactions to seriously damage it. This makes evaluation of the blade's age very difficult. [It would also greatly reduce my interest in purchasing such a sword and the amount I would pay for it -- that's a personal opinion, of course, and others may feel differently.] The relatively well preserved hilt of wood and brass seems out of keeping with the state of the blade, but it is possible that the hilt was better wrapped or preserved and so survived burial in a better state. It might also be a recent replacement for a damaged original. You should be able to tell if this is a recent replacement by looking where the blade enters the hilt for any recent fixation with epoxy, pitch, etc. The absence of an iron handguard, or the holes where one once was, is not a very good indicator of age because some of the older ones did not have such a guard (or the holes). Newer hilts generally lack those holes, as you point out. The use of brass on the hilt, and perhaps the presence of inlaid brass dots at the end of the blade, are 20th C. features IMHO. Brass on the hilt especially tends to be a mid- to late-20th C feature, perhaps also a little before WWII, but I have not seen this style of hilt on a Kampilan 100+ years old. The hilt suggests Maranao work to me. Overall, I don't think this blade is much older than the 1930s, and the hilt could be more recent than that. The sword has suffered harsh treatment which makes further identification difficult. Hope this is helpful. You may well get different opinions from other forumites. Ian.

2nd August 2005, 05:00 PM	#1
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Moro Kampilan for comment!!! Hi, I have here a very rusted kampilan which was consigned to me by the owner. I have doubts though about weather it is a recently made kampilan or an old one(the owner told me it is old). I just wanna confirm with you guys of the validity of this sword. I had this doubt when I cleaned the blade(of course with the owners permission), I noticed the upper layer of the blade got removed together with the rust as shown on the pics below. The owner told me he buried it on 1990's when the Philippine government were at war with Muslim rebels and terrorist of fear that soldiers might take. Also, all of the kampilans I have handled before has 2 holes on the handguard or is fitted with iron. But this one has none. Any comment + or - would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Attached Images

3rd August 2005, 12:55 AM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The spike on the tip looks to have been all file work & a little bit further back than normal. In order to let the spike protrude, the section towards the tip was filed.

3rd August 2005, 02:04 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE WORKMANSHIP IS NICE, THE TWO FANCY SILVER FITTINGS ON THE HANDLE AND THE FANCY BRASS OR GOLD EYE ARE NOT IN KEEPING WITH THE USUAL OLD KAMPILLIAN DECORATIONS. I HAD BID ON ONE WITH A FANCY ENGRAVED DESIGN ON A METAL PLATE ON ITS GAURD ON EBAY WITHIN THE LAST YEAR BUT FAILED TO GET IT. ANOTHER MEMBER GOT IT PERHAPS HE WILL ENLIGHTEN US AS TO IF IT IS NEW OR OLD. I HAVE SEEN THAT TYPE OF DAMMAGE ON ANTIQUED BLADES FROM BORNEO, THEY WERE TREATED WITH STRONG ACID WHICH RUINS A NICE BLADE WEATHER OLD OR NEW. IF YOU AQUIRE ONE IN FUTURE YOU MIGHT TRY SOME LITMUS PAPER ON IT BEFORE YOU CLEAN IT(PUT A LITTLE WATER ON A CRUDDY SPOT AND MIX IT AROUND WITH A BRUSH AND THEN APPLY THE PAPER). IF THE LITMUS TURNS FAST YOU CAN BE PRETTY SURE ACID WAS USED. YOU STILL MIGHT TRY IT JUST IN CASE SOME ACID REMAINS. THE ART OF ANTIQUING SWORDS AND OTHER ARTEFACTS IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD IS VERY GOOD AND OFTEN VERY DIFFICULT TO DETECT. THE MUSEUMS USED TO LOOK ON WOODCARVINGS AND WICKER WORK FROM NEW GUINEA AND OTHER REGIONS FOR THE SHELLS OF A CERTIAN TYPE OF BUG TO DETERMINE IF IT WAS AUTHENTIC. THE PRODUCERS FOUND OUT SO STARTED MAKEING SURE TO LEAVE THEIR WORK IN A SUITABLE ENVIORNMENT FOR A SUFFICENT TIME TO ALLOW THE BUGS TO DO THEIR WORK. CARVEINGS ARE ALSO SMOKED STAINED WITH VARIOUS CONCOCTIONS AND BURIED, MOST ANYTHING ORGANIC CAN BE EASILY ANTIQUED IF YOU KNOW HOW. THE CHINESE ARE THE MOST ADEPT AT MAKEING PATINAS ON BRONZE AND BRASS ITEMS. I LIKE KAMPILLIANS AND DON'T MIND GETTING A MORE RECENT WELL MADE ONE IF ITS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE BUT WOULD PREFER TO HAVE ITS CORRECT AGE AND A UNDAMMAGED BLADE.

5th August 2005, 12:43 AM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	There are 19th century kampilans with metal fittings, such as bands as this one displays, and most definitely brass dot inlay existed well before the 20th century. However, at least in regards to metal fittings, they are very very rare, and usually on very opulent pieces, such as ivory hilted kampilan. As Ian noted the rough blade and fresh hilt are always scary signs. Compared to metal, wood is nowhere near as durable, hence all the re-hilting we see in older pieces. To see a blade that is really worn, but a hilt that even if cleaned and restored is near pristine raises alot of questons. Blade thickness can be a clue. If it is really thin, then it could be a replacement.

5th August 2005, 02:23 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Agreed with Federico about distal taper . Both of my old Kampilan taper from a strong quarter inch at the hilt to a sixteenth at the tip . They both show very good temper (flex) .

5th August 2005, 03:33 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Philkid, How did you clean the blade, did you use chemicals, like a paint stripper? What else did the owner say about the history.

5th August 2005, 08:16 PM	#11
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Hi Bill, I just used WD40 and #1000 fine sandpaper. It does well with my other krises and kampilans but with this one it does not seem right. He didn't say much about the sword because of the language difference. We are both Filipinos but we do not have the same dialect. But what I'm really after is his kris with original ivory pommel. I'll post it if ever I get lucky. Does anyone of you guys have one? Can you post? Anyway thanks for the comments. Really appreciate it. Thanks.

5th August 2005, 08:51 PM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hi philkid, here's the link to my latest kampilan: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=kampilan here's another link from the old EEWRS with choke pictures. enjoy... http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000953.html