19th century sword or fake?

Multumesc · 12th March 2017, 01:58 PM

Hello friends.I recently saw this sword that I like.I'd like to have, but I find something curious about her:the distance between the blade guard and moat is high.What model is it? I do not have many pictures of this sword.Thank you very much.

Multumesc · 12th March 2017, 02:03 PM

These are the pictures.

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2017, 06:22 PM

At first glance this instantly recalls the U.S. M1852 officers swords, but the scabbard (with baldric carry rings signals not). The hilt may be of French type as the U.S. swords followed their patterns, and a French sword used in colonial regions 'may' have had such mountings on its scabbard.

The sword seems right, though the detail on the 'Phrygian helmet' pommel seems either heavily worn or poorly executed, the grips seem right but would have been leather covered with wire wrap. The blade has good age and unusually long ricasso.

The 'crimp' at near the chape of the scabbard is a detail not usually seen in reproductions, nor the unusual scabbard carry rings, so there seems to be more to this sword. Reproductions or 'fakes' do not typically replicate such anomalies.
You need better pics of the guard and its detail, look for blade markings, and try to find more on military scabbards with these kinds of carry rings.

kronckew · 12th March 2017, 06:31 PM

a lot of late 19c UK cavalry swords had the double rings like that, here's a 1885 yeomanry one with them. they were mostly used on straight bladed swords tho. the op's sword doesn't fit the typical british styles of the time. the blade looks a bit narrow, as they tended to get later in the century as pistols and revolvers became the first choice. even the USA patton sabre used the opposed dual ring method.

like already said, the french favoured this style hilt as well as the usa. i personally don't like it. officers of the time were prone to do their own thing tho. even i was allowed to carry a 9mm browning hi-power in lieu of the then issue 1911 colt .45 acp. when i went on landings /boardings requiring arms. (if we really expected opposition i would have carried an accurised .45acp colt 1911 series 70 mkIV and a few more mags, and an m16)

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2017, 04:46 AM

Thanks Wayne, I had entirely forgotten about these latter 19th century cavalry swords of the British Army which had become essentially too large to wear as a sidearm, and became a saddle mounted weapon.

These officers sabres were earlier and not of this heavier character as far as I have known, and the M1885 the first I believe to mount on saddle, but actually it doesn't seem nearly as big as the monstrous M1899 and M1908s.

kronckew · 13th March 2017, 08:59 AM

i've seen one german sabre with this double ring scabbard,but it don't think the germans liked them much.

the uk's 1908 looks very much like the 1913 'patton' us army sabre, with very slight differences, mostly in the blade, i suspect the '08 must have influenced patton a bit.

just for interest, here is a 1861P British HAC Light Cavalry officer's sword -with the ubiquitous double ring top mount. (HAC = Honourable Artillery Company)

12th March 2017, 01:58 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	19th century sword or fake? Hello friends.I recently saw this sword that I like.I'd like to have, but I find something curious about her:the distance between the blade guard and moat is high.What model is it? I do not have many pictures of this sword.Thank you very much.

12th March 2017, 02:03 PM	#2
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	19th century sword or fake? These are the pictures. Attached Images

12th March 2017, 06:31 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	a lot of late 19c UK cavalry swords had the double rings like that, here's a 1885 yeomanry one with them. they were mostly used on straight bladed swords tho. the op's sword doesn't fit the typical british styles of the time. the blade looks a bit narrow, as they tended to get later in the century as pistols and revolvers became the first choice. even the USA patton sabre used the opposed dual ring method. like already said, the french favoured this style hilt as well as the usa. i personally don't like it. officers of the time were prone to do their own thing tho. even i was allowed to carry a 9mm browning hi-power in lieu of the then issue 1911 colt .45 acp. when i went on landings /boardings requiring arms. (if we really expected opposition i would have carried an accurised .45acp colt 1911 series 70 mkIV and a few more mags, and an m16) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th March 2017 at 07:00 PM.

13th March 2017, 08:59 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i've seen one german sabre with this double ring scabbard,but it don't think the germans liked them much. the uk's 1908 looks very much like the 1913 'patton' us army sabre, with very slight differences, mostly in the blade, i suspect the '08 must have influenced patton a bit. just for interest, here is a 1861P British HAC Light Cavalry officer's sword -with the ubiquitous double ring top mount. (HAC = Honourable Artillery Company) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th March 2017 at 05:05 PM.

12th March 2017, 06:22 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	At first glance this instantly recalls the U.S. M1852 officers swords, but the scabbard (with baldric carry rings signals not). The hilt may be of French type as the U.S. swords followed their patterns, and a French sword used in colonial regions 'may' have had such mountings on its scabbard. The sword seems right, though the detail on the 'Phrygian helmet' pommel seems either heavily worn or poorly executed, the grips seem right but would have been leather covered with wire wrap. The blade has good age and unusually long ricasso. The 'crimp' at near the chape of the scabbard is a detail not usually seen in reproductions, nor the unusual scabbard carry rings, so there seems to be more to this sword. Reproductions or 'fakes' do not typically replicate such anomalies. You need better pics of the guard and its detail, look for blade markings, and try to find more on military scabbards with these kinds of carry rings.

13th March 2017, 04:46 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thanks Wayne, I had entirely forgotten about these latter 19th century cavalry swords of the British Army which had become essentially too large to wear as a sidearm, and became a saddle mounted weapon. These officers sabres were earlier and not of this heavier character as far as I have known, and the M1885 the first I believe to mount on saddle, but actually it doesn't seem nearly as big as the monstrous M1899 and M1908s.