Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th March 2017, 11:40 PM   #1
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,383
Question What Will Happen

To your collection after you have departed this mortal coil?
No one likes to contemplate the situation; we are all going someday though.
Has anyone a plan?
History seems to have become obsolete and out of fashion these days.

What will you do?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 10:27 AM   #2
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
To your collection after you have departed this mortal coil?
No one likes to contemplate the situation; we are all going someday though.
Has anyone a plan?
History seems to have become obsolete and out of fashion these days.

What will you do?


Unless I would die suddenly and unexpectedly, I was thinking to put it up on sale with one of more auction houses (as I don't have any kin or friends sharing this hobby). This way, my blades will reach somebody who will appreciate and care for them, while I will get a fair pay that I can pass to my kin.

You? Any other ideas?
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 11:50 AM   #3
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Unless I would die suddenly and unexpectedly, I was thinking to put it up on sale with one of more auction houses (as I don't have any kin or friends sharing this hobby). This way, my blades will reach somebody who will appreciate and care for them, while I will get a fair pay that I can pass to my kin.

You? Any other ideas?


Pretty much my plan as well.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 11:57 AM   #4
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 72
Default

I agree an auction is the best way to liquidate assets. Of course if you collect UK swords then an auction in Britain will fetch you the highest amounts and is worth the added shipping charges.
Best to liquidate before you go and when healthy enjoy the trips it finances.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 04:59 PM   #5
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,383
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Unless I would die suddenly and unexpectedly, I was thinking to put it up on sale with one of more auction houses (as I don't have any kin or friends sharing this hobby). This way, my blades will reach somebody who will appreciate and care for them, while I will get a fair pay that I can pass to my kin.

You? Any other ideas?


I, or my heir/s have to find an auction house in NYC or someplace that specializes in ethno stuff.
Not much interest in the keris in my little corner of the world.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 07:45 PM   #6
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I, or my heir/s have to find an auction house in NYC or someplace that specializes in ethno stuff.
Not much interest in the keris in my little corner of the world.


Why stick to "your corner of the world" these days?! You can put your keris collection up for sale with any major auction house dealing weapons. And the shipping charges are not prohibiting.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2017, 11:47 PM   #7
Green
Member
 
Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 148
Default

i always wonder why there aren't more public or private museums specializing in ethnographic weapons. wouldn't it be great if collectors of specialized ethonographic weapons such as balatos, mandaus and keris build their own private museums?...

it may be costly to build one in more expensive countries but it is not so in countries of origin of these arms (particularly Indonesia and Malaysia). My guess is to build a decent museum will not cost more than 0.5 million usd in these two countries. I'd be happy to participate if anyone is interested as I've always dream of having my own private museum!
Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 01:02 AM   #8
silberschatzimsee
Member
 
silberschatzimsee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 29
Default

The biggest issue would be the insurance and conservation.

@topic i would educate my famliy so that they know the monetary value should they try to sell it and dont get ripped off.
I on my own would never sell anything i love.
Ok if somebody offered me a obscene amount of cash i would reconsider it
silberschatzimsee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 09:29 AM   #9
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
i always wonder why there aren't more public or private museums specializing in ethnographic weapons. wouldn't it be great if collectors of specialized ethonographic weapons such as balatos, mandaus and keris build their own private museums?...

it may be costly to build one in more expensive countries but it is not so in countries of origin of these arms (particularly Indonesia and Malaysia). My guess is to build a decent museum will not cost more than 0.5 million usd in these two countries. I'd be happy to participate if anyone is interested as I've always dream of having my own private museum!


Actually there are such museums (or there is at least one)!

I visited one about two years ago, the NEKA ART MUSEUM in Ubud, Bali, Indonesia. The museum features the private Keris collection of Mr. Neka and it is a "must see" for any Keris aficionado.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 12:10 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,688
Unhappy Supposing ... but only supposing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
... No one likes to contemplate the situation; we are all going someday though ...

Indeed it sems i am not the only one to reject the idea that sooner or later one will kick the bucket. My wife will then consult my daughter but, a reasonable idea is to ask a good friend to take them pieces to a local (non web) auctioneer; this seems to do the trick. There will always be losses, but potentially inferior to those of direct selling. Experience teaches that, if some one wants to buy from you, prices may be fair; but if it is you to try and sell, they know you are interested and prices go down like an avalanche.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 01:12 PM   #11
Green
Member
 
Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Actually there are such museums (or there is at least one)!

I visited one about two years ago, the NEKA ART MUSEUM in Ubud, Bali, Indonesia. The museum features the private Keris collection of Mr. Neka and it is a "must see" for any Keris aficionado.


Yes, and I've been here twice. There is one in southern Thailand (on a smaller scale)...But would be good if we have more! to cater for specific kind of weapons of special interest to each museum owner... Neka for example caters chiefly to kemardikan Bali keris. I've yet so see any good mandau collections in any museums... would love it if someone would build a Dayak museum!
Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 02:11 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,627
Default

It will be good to have a friend with knowledge to help my wife when I am gone!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2017, 03:13 PM   #13
CCUAL
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 46
Default

When I started my collection I brought in a little side-kick with me, my 5 years old daughter. Now, even at young age, she's as enthusiastic as I am when it comes to this blades. She told me one time, don't worry dad, when you "kick the bucket! ", I will take care of our collections properly, I will place them in my home library for years and years to come for our family to enjoy, and when my time comes!.. but before it comes, I will mold my children or one of my children as their new care taker!
Attached Images
 

Last edited by CCUAL : 20th March 2017 at 08:08 PM.
CCUAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 01:02 AM   #14
machinist
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 81
Default

After a little talk with my brother I had planned to take pics and add notes as to what they are and might be worth and how best to dispose of each piece, some might do well on Ebay but others would need to go to a regular auction house.
Having a good database would be of help if I suffered a theft also.
I do think that getting rid of lesser pieces while still able to do so is best and pair down the collection.
machinist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 11:52 AM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinist
... Having a good database would be of help if I suffered a theft also. ..

I think this is a must, by all means ...
Mine is composed of:

#
TYPE OF WEAPON
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN
MODEL
SERIAL NUMBERS
MARKS/INSCRIPTIONS
SELLER
AGE
THOROUGHEST DESCRIPTION
PRICE BOUGHT
YEAR BOUGHT
HYPERLINK TO PHOTOS LIBRARY.

I have opted for price bought as i take it this is vital to register the actual value you paid for as then, eventually from there, you may build a theoretical selling price, depending on the context; in my case a price to loose, as i am no shrewd buyer at all.


.

Last edited by fernando : 21st March 2017 at 12:05 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 04:36 PM   #16
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 557
Default Some Harsh Realities

The happiest situation, of course, is when the collector has deserving and interested relatives and or friends who would appreciate and maintain the collection, but I fear this is not a common outcome.

Similarly, the vast majority of the items in our collections are unlikely to be of interest to museums for inclusion into their collections and display. They can only absorb so much.

This means that the majority of our collections will find their way back into the marketplace and ultimately into new collections as the cycle completes another turn. This is not bad as this is where most of our own collections came from.

Unfortunately, preserving the monetary value of the collection upon dispersal for the collector's heirs will be difficult if possible. When items have been held for a good long time and have not fallen from popularity (or have been wrongly stigmatized and blocked from sale as is the current case of items with ivory content in many jurisdictions) natural price appreciation and the background of inflation will mask the expenses and trauma of transfer.

Sale by auction has been favored in the comments above and given the correct venue and a decent turnout may be the highest yielding 'turnkey' solution. Still, for most items, auction prices are likely to lag behind retail gallery prices, partially because the buyer must account for an obscene 15 to 25% (or thereabouts buyer's commission) beyond what the seller's commission will take. In any case expect, on a 'good' day at auction, that something like about a third of the value will be absorbed by the transfer process. With penalties for 'high' reserves, setting a reserve can provide only so much protection.

Selling to a dealer is another solution that may provide a quick and relatively easy 'turnkey' solution. However, one reality that many collectors may not realize until they try to sell in bulk is that a buying dealer must tie up their capital in the collection and it may take a lot of work, ancillary expenses and years to sell. This means that one should expect only 25 to 50% of the price that the dealer eventually hopes to realize. As some of you recoil in horror, let me advise you (from my own adventures as a 'limited instruction set specialist antique dealer') that the dealer is very likely going to earn that markup. At least with this option your heirs do know what you will get 'up front'!

You, your family or a friend of the family can always try the DIY (do it yourself) option and work through the collection via online sales or sales at gun shows and achieve a low retail return if you have the time and patience. You will surely earn the improved return with many hours of labor and you should go into such a plan with your eyes open as to issues with online sales hosts and their policies that may leave you hanging or 'crushed under the bus'.

Our deceased forums moderator Lew Waldman left his family with a written ledger book for about half of his collection with inventory numbers, a description and some of his thoughts about each item and an estimate of value. Doing so has increased their recovery of his collection's value. A database is great for the collector (and Fernando has covered what needs to be included above) but I would advise there also being a paper copy of the information just in case the family is less computer adept or the password for the well-encrypted file dies with you. (After all the file includes the greatest secret a collector will likely have kept from their loved ones - namely how much they have invested in their collection!) I have no one to keep this information from, and yet I still greatly restrict its dissemination. I have sternly warned my next of kin to find my records before disposing of anything - whichever option you choose they will need to have this information to intelligently assess their options! So, perhaps a private (only your name and signature) safe deposit box for your records of provenance, receipts, etc. and only a note they will find telling them where to find the key once they have a death certificate to present with it at the bank.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 09:14 PM   #17
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,215
Default

Everything that Lee has written, I endorse 100%.

Several years ago, a lifelong friend of mine, who was a very serious collector of Eastern edged weapons, received his promotion to a higher realm. He had always told me in conversation that he intended his collection to be sold back into the market after his promotion --- in his words:- "for the benefit of my fellow collectors" --- and that he had entrusted this task to his heirs. He had prepared a record of:- year purchased, amount paid, description, together with a photo of each piece.

Now, several years later, that very large collection is packed into cardboard boxes in the under-floor space of his heir's home. To the best of my knowledge no attempt has been made to put this collection into the market, and the heirs themselves have nil interest in this "junk". When it finally does hit the market --- if ever --- it truly will be junk.

Another good friend, who has had a long and close association with the world of the keris has bequeathed not only his collection, but as far as I am aware, virtually all his other assets to a USA university. The keris & etc to the museum, the other assets, I guess, to the institution itself.

A third case of "collection disposal" of an acquaintance is for me, very sad. I had a customer who had discovered keris late in life, he quickly developed an intense interest, and he credited this interest with helping him to overcome repeated bouts of depression. He left instructions in his will that the collection be given to his old university. His heirs attempted to do this, but the university would not accept it unless it was accompanied by a massive donation of funds or assets to cover cost of keeping the collection. I do not know what eventually happened to this collection, and about 50% of it was very good, the balance just middle-of-the-market.

But one case in which I was involved is to my mind the ideal solution. At age 12 my grandfather gave me his collection of weapons, most of which were collected in place of origin between 1918 and about 1922.

The cases above, as well as a number of similar cases of which I am aware, and that involve the winding up of an estate, have convinced me that when I do move on, as little as possible of the things I have accumulated during my life should be left for others to get rid of. I've been working on this in a gradual manner for about the last 20 years.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 09:49 PM   #18
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
The cases above, as well as a number of similar cases of which I am aware, and that involve the winding up of an estate, have convinced me that when I do move on, as little as possible of the things I have accumulated during my life should be left for others to get rid of. I've been working on this in a gradual manner for about the last 20 years.


Hello Alan,

I think you "can" do this because you collect experience and knowledge and not "material things", maybe the best way to collect!
I've learned to do it in a similar way but in me is a great portion of a "classic" collector!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 09:53 PM   #19
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Everything that Lee has written, I endorse 100%.


I am the second in the row!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2017, 11:34 PM   #20
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,480
Default

I also agree with the above.

I do a page of research and description of each piece, with values and provenance, etc. With that come pictures. This helped me when my collection was broken into, and will again with my death.

Upon my death, for now, Laura my wife will take it over, redistribute some, get some help from specific collector/dealer friends who will know better by then what to sell personally and what goes to auction.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2017, 02:20 PM   #21
Green
Member
 
Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee





Our deceased forums moderator Lew Waldman left his family with a written ledger book for about half of his collection with inventory numbers, a description and some of his thoughts about each item and an estimate of value.


Oh interesting...
His sumatera keris panjang #1016 under Indonesia list was sold on ebay sometimes back and it was bought by me.

I wish there are more people selling stuff in this forum ...
Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2017, 07:12 PM   #22
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,013
Default Another consideration......

In addition to the wise comments above, there is another aspect to consider, in countries where one needs a licence to own (antique/old) firearms. If your wife/surviving kin do not hold a firearms licence, then the local Police can confiscate the items, or at least "look after them". Best to have a friend who IS a licence holder uplift the items and dispose of them on behalf of the heirs. At least that way they don't just "disappear".
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:26 PM   #23
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,383
Default

Very good idea Stu.
When the police have a gun buyback day or week here; outside the entrance to the station are often a host of FFL holders buying the good stuff before it even gets in the door.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2017, 10:34 PM   #24
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,688
Default

That is another 500's, Stu. Even in the countries you are entitled to possess a firearm produced before a determined date (1891) without having to manifest it, the simple cop who catches the item doesn't qualify to judge it by himself, so: he arrests the thing, just in case, and takes it to their quarters and is you who have to go through all eternal red tape (and not only) to prove the piece is within the law; and you are left to the judge who has to recognize such antiquity to release the item. So all you need is luck and don't get spotted, as with anything else.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM   #25
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 557
Lightbulb A further thought

A noted antique arms dealer once told me that he was considering offering a collection dispersal service oriented around publishing a very high quality catalogue of a collection that would serve not only as a record of the collection, but as a sales tool for its dispersal. Of course, single owner auction sales have also generated such catalogs.

Perhaps, as a collector does approach 'end stage' in collecting activities, the publication of such a catalogue - showing the collection at its zenith - is a way of documenting the transient and also very importantly sharing with future collectors where the objects have been and also perhaps some stories about what the present collector learned from or went through acquiring the artifact (as in some of Ewart Oakeshott's writings.) Perhaps this may be a useful, productive and rewarding route when the times of building a collection do come to an end.

Such a catalogue does not have to be associated with a sale, of course, and at worst, the executor of the collector's estate might find it very useful.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM   #26
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 72
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
A noted antique arms dealer once told me that he was considering offering a collection dispersal service oriented around publishing a very high quality catalogue of a collection that would serve not only as a record of the collection, but as a sales tool for its dispersal. Of course, single owner auction sales have also generated such catalogs.

Perhaps, as a collector does approach 'end stage' in collecting activities, the publication of such a catalogue - showing the collection at its zenith - is a way of documenting the transient and also very importantly sharing with future collectors where the objects have been and also perhaps some stories about what the present collector learned from or went through acquiring the artifact (as in some of Ewart Oakeshott's writings.) Perhaps this may be a useful, productive and rewarding route when the times of building a collection do come to an end.

Such a catalogue does not have to be associated with a sale, of course, and at worst, the executor of the collector's estate might find it very useful.


A catalogue is a great idea and you can add the stories behind the weapons. We know that stories sell the items and at higher prices then without. A simple study on eBay in where two identical items were listed, one with a story behind it. The one with the story sold for considerably more.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:45 PM   #27
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England UK.
Posts: 5,170
Default

I am selling most of mine this September.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.