Badik from Java??

Athanase · 11th March 2017, 03:36 PM

Here is a very modest badik (34cm).
The forged blade(18cm) is very simple.
The handle is in Wood, the scabbard in wood, bone and buffalo blac horn en blond horn (cow?)

I bought this knife because I did not have this shape yet and the dedication written on the scabbard.
It is very hard to read and photograph but it is written:

"poignard des naturels de Zanzibar. ( détroit de la Sonde.)
pris et apporté par moi à mon ami
Marius Boullard. S. pinson."

in english :
"dagger of the natives of Zanzibar. (strait of the Sonde.)
taken and brought by me to my friend
Marius Boullard. S. pinson."

The problem is the indication "Zanzibar"
The mention: Strait of the Sound, is logical, I search on google map a city with a name resembling "Zanzibar" to explain the confusion, but I did not find.
Unfortunately the date is not written. But the style of writing reminds one of the nineteenth and early twentieth century.
I found on the internet a Marius Boullard whose dates of life could correspond.

Marius Boullard, French conpositor, 1842-1891

But it is impossible to find the trace of a S. Pinson who traveled to Indonesia in the 19th century.

Sajen · 11th March 2017, 04:30 PM

Yes, a badik from Jawa!

Regards,
Detlef

mariusgmioc · 11th March 2017, 06:33 PM

And you are surprised by this?!
I've seen in several reputed museums some geographical alocations that would surprise you even more (like a wootz Indian Tulwar atributed to Libya or a Javanes Kris atributed to India).

So, don't give too much weight to the inscription and remember it was written by a person who may have had absolutely no knowledge about the item.

PS: And maybe Mr. Pinson bought it in a flea market in Zanzibar and concluded it must belong to the place.

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2017, 08:27 PM

Yes, Jawa.

Sajen · 11th March 2017, 09:31 PM

The white ring in down from the scabbard will be bone or buckhorn (deer/tanduk), not blonde horn, hope it's clear what I mean.
Blade is somewhat overpolished and would benefit by a new warangan. It will be a pamor (laminated) blade I guess. Typical Jawa badik. It's not the first time that I see very old wrong descriptions.

Regards,
Detlef

Athanase · 11th March 2017, 11:02 PM

Thank you all for your comments.

The blade looks laminated, but I don't think it's a real pamor.
For the blonde horn I spoke of the upper part of the scabbard (left on the last picture). It's translucent to light. The white ring next to the black tip is indeed bone.

Sajen · 12th March 2017, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

The blade looks laminated, but I don't think it's a real pamor.

I've never seen antique badiks without pamor blade!

Athanase · 12th March 2017, 02:50 PM

I have another Javanese badik, (almost the same but smaller) with the same problem for the blade. I think to guess a laminated steel, but it has been so polished and sharpened that it's impossible to detect a pamor.

Sajen · 12th March 2017, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

I have another Javanese badik, (almost the same but smaller) with the same problem for the blade. I think to guess a laminated steel, but it has been so polished and sharpened that it's impossible to detect a pamor.

Maybe both blades need a new warangan!

Ian · 12th March 2017, 04:29 PM

Athanase:

A significant French presence in SE Asia came later than other European nations. It was not until the late 18th/early 19th C that any substantial French presence existed in mainland SE Asia. French Indochina was not established until the second half of the 19th C. It's quite possible that the knife was purchased in the 19th C. by a French traveler to Indonesia or to one of the French Indochina centers trading with Indonesia. More likely, I think, is that the knife was purchased in Zanzibar, and hence the Zanzibar attribution. M. Pinson might have been a sailor and picked this up almost anywhere, but there is the Zanzibar attribution that needs to be explained.

Ian.

11th March 2017, 03:36 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 403	Badik from Java?? Here is a very modest badik (34cm). The forged blade(18cm) is very simple. The handle is in Wood, the scabbard in wood, bone and buffalo blac horn en blond horn (cow?) I bought this knife because I did not have this shape yet and the dedication written on the scabbard. It is very hard to read and photograph but it is written: "poignard des naturels de Zanzibar. ( détroit de la Sonde.) pris et apporté par moi à mon ami Marius Boullard. S. pinson." in english : "dagger of the natives of Zanzibar. (strait of the Sonde.) taken and brought by me to my friend Marius Boullard. S. pinson." The problem is the indication "Zanzibar" The mention: Strait of the Sound, is logical, I search on google map a city with a name resembling "Zanzibar" to explain the confusion, but I did not find. Unfortunately the date is not written. But the style of writing reminds one of the nineteenth and early twentieth century. I found on the internet a Marius Boullard whose dates of life could correspond. Marius Boullard, French conpositor, 1842-1891 But it is impossible to find the trace of a S. Pinson who traveled to Indonesia in the 19th century. Attached Images

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11th March 2017, 04:30 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,465	Yes, a badik from Jawa! Regards, Detlef

11th March 2017, 06:33 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,869	And you are surprised by this?! I've seen in several reputed museums some geographical alocations that would surprise you even more (like a wootz Indian Tulwar atributed to Libya or a Javanes Kris atributed to India). So, don't give too much weight to the inscription and remember it was written by a person who may have had absolutely no knowledge about the item. PS: And maybe Mr. Pinson bought it in a flea market in Zanzibar and concluded it must belong to the place.

11th March 2017, 08:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes, Jawa.

11th March 2017, 09:31 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,465	The white ring in down from the scabbard will be bone or buckhorn (deer/tanduk), not blonde horn, hope it's clear what I mean. Blade is somewhat overpolished and would benefit by a new warangan. It will be a pamor (laminated) blade I guess. Typical Jawa badik. It's not the first time that I see very old wrong descriptions. Regards, Detlef

11th March 2017, 11:02 PM	#6
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 403	Thank you all for your comments. The blade looks laminated, but I don't think it's a real pamor. For the blonde horn I spoke of the upper part of the scabbard (left on the last picture). It's translucent to light. The white ring next to the black tip is indeed bone.

12th March 2017, 02:50 PM	#8
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 403	I have another Javanese badik, (almost the same but smaller) with the same problem for the blade. I think to guess a laminated steel, but it has been so polished and sharpened that it's impossible to detect a pamor.

12th March 2017, 04:29 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Athanase: A significant French presence in SE Asia came later than other European nations. It was not until the late 18th/early 19th C that any substantial French presence existed in mainland SE Asia. French Indochina was not established until the second half of the 19th C. It's quite possible that the knife was purchased in the 19th C. by a French traveler to Indonesia or to one of the French Indochina centers trading with Indonesia. More likely, I think, is that the knife was purchased in Zanzibar, and hence the Zanzibar attribution. M. Pinson might have been a sailor and picked this up almost anywhere, but there is the Zanzibar attribution that needs to be explained. Ian.